Thread: .243 load development part deux

Originally Posted by Zedrex

Finally!
So TL : DR As my first foray into handloading I wanted to develop a round that performed as well as if not better than Win Deer Season...mission accomplished
@gimp here you go, thoughts?

So the first four targets presented are "testing" after "development" and grouping being sub par.....I was told to clean my f'in barrel, which I did. I think the targets are pretty self explanatory.
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To remove the nut behind the trigger variable, a proven shooter sent 10 down range

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And just because I still had some, I sent some Fiocchi 100gr BT's with (to me) predictable results
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So after this and with guidance from helpful souls in here I and my mentor subjected the barrel to a thorough clean (top tip, if you want someone else to clean your rifle, just "accidently" leave it behind at their place, activity beats boredom everytime

The following were shot in 2 x 5RD groups at the given powder weight one group off bipod followed by off Benchrest, between each 5RD group the barrel was allowed to cool, whilst I walked down range to mark the first group and remove/reattach bipod
After 10RDS at the given powder weight, I pulled a dry bore snake through to return the barrel "cleaned" state and allowed the barrel to cool for 15 minutes whilst I let doggo out to stretch his legs and have a cuppa, me, not doggo.

First was the deer season to get my head in the game, adjust zero and to refoul the barrel, you can see how everything tightens up over the 10RDS
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Then 10RDS at the given powder weights
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Finally and because someone here suggested it, I did a 5RD group without the suppressor, I stopped at 5 because damn that's loud and there were maybe 10 cops with Gloks and Bushmaster's on the 20 metre range about 50m away and did I mention damn it's loud?!!
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It's been a fascinating journey and along the way I've learnt some, got more questions and become far more aware of and critical of my shooting technique. It was also interesting to note that I shoot better off a bipod than a bench.

Good stuff. I've been away hunting. Looks like the precision is more or less what I'd call average-to-poor for a factory hunting rifle.

Try a different bullet if you want better precision. If that doesn't work after a couple of different bullets, you'll have to change something on the gun, or the gun.


This is the advice I gave a while ago - I still stick by it

Originally Posted by gimp

However, we're in the weeds. Jam a bullet that will stabilise in a 1:10 twist on top of around about a bit under a max load of 2209. Shoot 10, if the group is bigger than 2moa, try a different bullet.

Originally Posted by Stocky

Im not sure id say a 3plus moa loads 300m plus precision maybe 300m max. I really should get the WEZ. @gimp could run a sim for that precision with average wind calling ability and his combo.

I assumed about 3MOA cone of fire which looks about right with the high level of variation we see here.

As I keep saying it's not that important for hunting at conventional ranges, although the WEZ assumptions are a bit generous

Most factory rifles shoot most things relatively poorly. This is reasonably clear when you measure properly. There may be a bullet with which your rifle produces excellent precision but it ain't this one.

The 95gr Targex produces good precision in most rifles it seems.

The 90gr eldx worked well for a mate with a fussy tikka .243 that wouldn't shoot anything else.

Originally Posted by gimp

Most factory rifles shoot most things relatively poorly. This is reasonably clear when you measure properly. There may be a bullet with which your rifle produces excellent precision but it ain't this one.

The 95gr Targex produces good precision in most rifles it seems.

The 90gr eldx worked well for a mate with a fussy tikka .243 that wouldn't shoot anything else.

Sunday coming we're going to shoot the Franchi alongside a Sako, same caibre, with these loads and some other proven loads from my mentor, also going to swap out scopes to rule that out, so a few variables to play with, one at a time and see what happens and if still floundering around, some projectile partypacks to try along with perhaps some federal blue box... @Micky Duck might bring some down along with a bunch of rifles for me to try at a later date.....the journey continues, on your WEZ image, what exactly am I looking at here?

Originally Posted by gimp

Most factory rifles shoot most things relatively poorly. This is reasonably clear when you measure properly. There may be a bullet with which your rifle produces excellent precision but it ain't this one.

The 95gr Targex produces good precision in most rifles it seems.

The 90gr eldx worked well for a mate with a fussy tikka .243 that wouldn't shoot anything else.

You're a tad pessimistic . . . I've been on the 10 shot group thing for at least 3 new/used factory rifles (all modestly priced) and some builds using two Hardy barrels, one Criterion and they have all comfortably made 1.5 MOA with favored ammo, with most of them hovering just over 1.0 MOA.

I try and convince guys to shoot 10 shot groups at the range but funny enough, get few takers. My observation from what I do see is most factory rifle/ammo combinations should achieve 2.0 MOA or better after a favored ammo is found. Assumes ofcourse that everything is mechanically sound.

Originally Posted by Zedrex

Sunday coming we're going to shoot the Franchi alongside a Sako, same caibre, with these loads and some other proven loads from my mentor, also going to swap out scopes to rule that out, so a few variables to play with, one at a time and see what happens and if still floundering around, some projectile partypacks to try along with perhaps some federal blue box... @Micky Duck might bring some down along with a bunch of rifles for me to try at a later date.....the journey continues, on your WEZ image, what exactly am I looking at here?

Why are you worrying about another rifle and proven loads in another rifle?

To rule out error in the operator.

Originally Posted by gimp

I assumed about 3MOA cone of fire which looks about right with the high level of variation we see here.

As I keep saying it's not that important for hunting at conventional ranges, although the WEZ assumptions are a bit generous

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That at 300m? Better than expected but I knew 2moa causes no serious issues.

Edit:
Got Quantum i think a 250mm radius is a bit generous a hit area.

Originally Posted by Dicko

To rule out error in the operator.

More to rule out (or otherwise) issues with the actual rifle/scope, the operator will be the same.....and then we'll change the operator with back to back groups

Originally Posted by Stocky

That at 300m? Better than expected but I knew 2moa causes no serious issues.

Edit:
Got Quantum i think a 250mm radius is a bit generous a hit area.

If we remove wind from the equation it's still good PHit at 300m on a 200mm dia




And if we put wind back in -

82% PHit for 0.9mrad precision, or 90% for 0.3mrad (genuine submoa cone of fire)

The wez assumes however that there is no shooter error and that the solution is perfectly centred. The model is mechanically sound(ish) but overly optimistic for real world results with actual humans

Wez uses radius thats a 400mm (16inch) circle i used a 300x250 rectangle to approximate a red deer kill zone hits probably down nearer 70.

Originally Posted by Zedrex

Sunday coming we're going to shoot the Franchi alongside a Sako, same caibre, with these loads and some other proven loads from my mentor, also going to swap out scopes to rule that out, so a few variables to play with, one at a time and see what happens and if still floundering around, some projectile partypacks to try along with perhaps some federal blue box... @Micky Duck might bring some down along with a bunch of rifles for me to try at a later date.....the journey continues, on your WEZ image, what exactly am I looking at here?

The WEZ is a hit probability calculator that takes a variety of inputs of variation in your system and runs a monte carlo simulation to give a probability of hit, based on different combinations of those variables - e.g. what does it look like if you have a shot from high in the velocity range, with a high wind reading errror, and a high dispersion (poor precision) value? times 100 simulated shots.

Stocky quite rightly points out that I'm an idiot and ran it for a 250mm RADIUS not diameter - I am used to using a different hit probability calc.

Originally Posted by gimp

The WEZ is a hit probability calculator that takes a variety of inputs of variation in your system and runs a monte carlo simulation to give a probability of hit, based on different combinations of those variables - e.g. what does it look like if you have a shot from high in the velocity range, with a high wind reading errror, and a high dispersion (poor precision) value? times 100 simulated shots.

Stocky quite rightly points out that I'm an idiot and ran it for a 250mm RADIUS not diameter - I am used to using a different hit probability calc.

@Zedrex

My simulation above is assuming you can roughly guess wind within 5mph (for a complete amateur its doeable in essy conditions but in the mountains its not a given), range could vary plus or minus 3m (not unrealistic in field conditions landholding a rangefinder), a 3moa rifle, with a velocity sd of 15fps. It also assumes a bc variance of 1% which i kind of doubt much outside of match projectiles and eld xs have. The target is a 12 inch wide by 10 inch tall rectangle to represent a red deer vital zone.

Varying things shows even a 4moa only drops to 60% hit rate whilst droping to 2moa only increases it 76% but a true 0.5moa rifle (i dont know anyone with one) only improves that to 79%.

Being able to call wind to 2mph increases it to 86% even with a 3moa gun whilst if you can only guess within ~7mph decreases it all the way to 53%. Even with a 0.5moa gun its only a 60% hit rate.

It seems one of the single largest ways to improve long range shooting is getting better at wind calls. Most of the other variables at 300m need significant change in order to matter.

In order to do that you have to shoot lots in field conditions.

Fuck me. I think I'm lost...

Whatever range you can consistently hit a compact disc is your maxumum. A wise man one told me, sadly now deceased