Wondering if anyone has played with the 223AI?
Particularly interested in fast twist 80gr plus type setup
Seems to me it would be an ideal economical long range plinker/all rounder
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Wondering if anyone has played with the 223AI?
Particularly interested in fast twist 80gr plus type setup
Seems to me it would be an ideal economical long range plinker/all rounder
I'm pretty sure @gimp had one.
I recently read about one might have being on a face book reloading page it sounded like on average gains were 150fps from a full barrel but no first hand experience
Had one. Wouldn't bother. Get a normal .223.
Mate is shooting one. According to him its a totally different rifle after he got it AI'd..
I've got a reamer if you looking for someone to ackley your 223.
Ai ing brass sucks. From an ai owner.
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22 Terminator/22-204 is the way forward if you have the magazine length available :)
https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....rminator-5607/
Doesn't seem so long ago :wtfsmilie:
at least with a 223 factory ammo is reasonable and it would be quite usable with forming loads. 223 is cheap to run and I reckon Youd loose that with 204
I'll be in touch @Jaco if i do want to scratch the itch
Great pills if you want more speed put more powder behind it have a little experience
22 Terminator is good
22x47 lap is better
22 Creedmoor will be next
I wasn't going to comment but couldn't help myself.
Been the owner of a couple of these types of cartridges over the years it's good to see other people that have done it think the same as me
Don't do it!
Stick to standard chamberings that you can buy quality brass for.
If you want to push the big .224 pills get a 1-8 twist 22-250 or going 88/90 go 1-7.
My 2 cents!
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I know of a fella..who got a .223 reemed out to that longer version,based on 204 case...used it,stuck it in cabinet as pain in arse in so many ways,then years later got sick of not having cheap easy wallaby rifle so got it rechambered back into 223....... and lived happily ever after LOL.
Greetings All,
The extravagant claims for vastly increased velocity in AI cases are only made with vastly increased pressure. Time after time actual pressure tests have shown little, if any, increased performance. The .280 Rem AI seems to be the gold standard for increased performance but this is achieved to loading to higher pressure. The .280 is loaded to comparatively lower pressure. Still it is a free country and if having an Ackley Improved case rings your bell go to it. Just don't expect the fancy shoulder to produce miracle gains. I did have a .30-06 AI at one stage but it is long gone and not missed in the slightest.
Regards Grandpamac.
From the other side of the fence, I have 3 improved cases. 243ai, 280ai and a 338 Norma improved. Fire forming is simply more shooting, I like shooting, the fire forming loads are generally as accurate as the formed, so gongs, targets , hunting is just the same as with the parent case. There is a gain to be had in velocity, how much is often debated but a gain is a gain. Example is the 243 ai with a 23 inch barrel running a 105 vld at 3140fps, is the pressure up on normal loads? maybe but lapua cases last 12 reloads or more and everything functions perfectly , over a thousand rounds in 12 years and counting. Cases don't grow, Iv never had to trim any cases. feeding has never been an issue ,I would not go back to the parent case.
That being said I dont think Id do a 223ai.
I basically dont own calibres that are not AI'd. 308 ans 204 Ruger excluded. Never had any issues with a ackley, my ackleys are some of the most accurate rifles Ive ever shot.
Maybe its just because AI is a lifestyle for me - I dont know anything else - that I dont have any complaints.
Pretty much the only downside is fireforming brass and you can't use it for shoots that only allow 223 (not that many).
Supposedly once fireformed brass prep in non-existent.
The extra 100-150fps should be enough to get 85-90gr bullets up near 2800fps with a decent length barrel.
For a competition rifle I think it'd be worthwhile (subject to class restrictions), general plinking/hunting probably not.
I love AI cases - so buy a 22creedmoor. Shoot the heavier pills, but much faster than a 223AI. Massive difference on game with 75eldm or 85.5 bergers.
Im running them slow but accurate - hornadys @ 3400fps w 10mm group, and bergers @ 3155 n 12mm
Yeh, personally I don't get AI.
If you don't think a 223 is doing enough just buy a 22-250. If the 308 is lacking buy a 30.06
There are plenty of cartridges to choose from.
But if it floats your boat, go for it.
If you look at the modern case designs , creedmore , PRC etc it seems they are following the P O Ackley recipe with less taper on the case and steeper shoulder angles. There is little to improve on latter designs and the 223 rem is in that camp. It is really an improved 222 rem with the shoulder blown forward , a very short neck and minimal case case taper. Older designs left significantly more room for improvement.
My only experience with an Ackley Improved cartridge has been nothing but positive. I bought my wife a Cooper Custom Classic in 250 Savage AI and fire forming the Win cases was not only very easy but they proved to be very accurate and even the fire forming loads passed the Cooper 3 shot in less than a 1/2" at 100 yard guarantee.
With a 40 grain load of RL15 using Winchester brass and Fed 210 Match primers the Ackley load is producing 3088 fps with 100 grain Sierra GK projectiles, this also shot 5 shot groups that are less that .5" at 100 meters.
There are no pressure signs and the cases expand less than .001" at the .200" mark from new to fully fire formed. These loads are 1 grain lower than the 41 grain max load shown in the 6th Edition of the Sierra reloading Manual.
Fwiw, I turned a 204 case to a 6.5 and in my kimber with 22 inch barrel it shot the 90 gr pills out at 3100 fps. It's just like any reloader you need to make an effort.
And the .224 savage.....yeah that's my point. Lots of pissing around for bugger all gain.
the bit that really cracks me up is that the 204 ruger is pretty much a necked DOWN 222 magnum and these days folks are taking the 204 case and necking it UP to .224 yet you very seldom see anyone still using a 222magnum.
your money and your time at end of day.
Not nearly as impressive as people buying Lapua 6.5-284 brass and necking it back up to 7mm.
222 magnum doesn't really suit today's market, slow twists and the shallow shoulder angle mean you can't run heavy high BC projectiles and will be doing a lot if brass trimming.
Like all new trends, some are just undoing the poor decisions of the past, others are taking improvements that have been discovered and applying them to old cartridges. But in almost every case the new generation of cartridges are genuinely better than the cartridges they've replaced.
Beetroot....the trap with that thinking is the slower twist is NOT FAULT of the cartridge...its the rifles it came in before a lot of us were out of school,if not born.....
.243 22-250 .222 all fall victim to the same until you stop and think about WHY they were given a slow twist to begin with...and when you do it makes perfect sence..... the slow twist was for varmint projectiles as all were designed as varmint guns..... none were made for heavy for calibre projectiles....there were not many of them around back then,and monos were very scarce if could find them at all. the ultra fast cartridges of the time had issues keeping projectiles together as it was,a faster twist and projectiles became a grey cloud of dust in mid air on way to target lol
Greetings All,
After writing my earlier post I started thinking about what hot shot .22 cartridge is about these days? A friend was waving a 6.5 Grendel in front of me yesterday and I wondered if something similar was available in .22. Turns out Hornady had beaten me to it with the .22 ARC based on the Grendel case. Fast twist for heavy projectiles. Yes I know @Micky Duck just like the .22 Savage High-power from over 100 years back. A 30 degree shoulder rather than 40 degrees for the AI and extra pointy projectiles complete the picture. Fits in a short action. I need to sit somewhere quiet for a bit.
Regards Grandpamac.
PS. It does look a bit like the Donaldson Wasp.
Greetings @kiwi303 and all,
First my apologies for having, along with others, hijacked your thread. Parker Ackley came out with his series of improved cases in the 1940's and 50's. The idea was to get a bit more velocity from the limited number of standard cases available at the time. Large increases in velocity were claimed due to the case shoulder shape but little of the data was chronographed let alone pressure tested. Much more recently actual pressure testing has dispelled some of the myth. The only cartridge I can think of that has been adopted as a factory cartridge is the .280 Remington AI. Hodgdon publishes pressure tested data for both the standard and AI versions. The AI version is loaded to a higher pressure and charge, velocity and pressure are all linear (form a straight line when plotted on a graph. A little number crunching indicated that the increase in velocity was around 35 fps for the AI over the standard version, not the several hundred fps claimed by some.
If you really like the look of the 40 degree shoulder then by all means go ahead but there is another path. The .223 is most commonly chambered in semi autos in the US and these have particular requirements regarding port pressure and it appears to me that current data has been dialled back for some powders due to this. Of the powders I have worked with AR2206H (H4895) seems to give decent velocity within published data where some later data for other powders struggle.
Best of luck and regards Grandpamac.
If 3300 and 52 grn, 3200 and 55 grain or 2950 with a 80 grn isn't good enough for .224 applications I don't know what is. Thats what I get from my standard .223 Tikka. My 20" .223 is right on its heels. BM2 and 2206H do it no trouble.
Ackley is dear to my heart. I have all his books and notebook.
Yes, a gain in velocity was a benefit but Ackley said himself, in his books, that velocity increase wasn't the main driver. Eliminating or minimising brass flow and constant trimming with the 40 degree shoulder was one on his main stated aims. Reduced bolt thrust by using a very shallow case taper was another benefit.
Also a lot of the Akleyised catridges didn't give worthwile velocity improvement at all.
And of course it has become fashionable to create an AI nowadays even though the man himself didn't create it. I shoot a 6.5x55bjai which was not one of Ackley's. Bob Jordan, the American gun writer created that one. Bob Jordan also wrote a very good article in the Precision Shooter some years ago analysing Ackley's efforts and the later ones created by others. Some of them offer virtually no velocity improvement. I cannot locate that article now. I am not sure where the 223AI sits.
PS: The 6.5x55bjai is one of the more successful improvements. I running 6.5/284 velocities, using slightly less powder than a 6.5/284, and have hardly trimmed cases to date.
Still, the K Hornet does give a great benefit - a proper shoulder to headspace on. Velocity wise the advantage is no longer as great as the use of Lil-Gun in a std Hornet gets those magical K Hornet velocities of the past.
I cannot bring myself to K Hornet 2 of mine - the BRNO and the Walther.
Hi all,
Over the years i have had 22H, 222, 223, 22-250, 22-250AI, 22-243 and have shot rabbits, goats, pigs and deer with them all.
These are my conclusions:
I can say the most versatile is the 223.
I can say i'm not a fan of fire forming or trimming.
The 22-250AI and 22-243 are great when you don't own a laser rangefinder.
They are all fun.