223 on deer

My percentage of quick clean kills with 223 is no less than with the mighty 270... Because I have learnt to be disaplined enough to not shoot if not confident of clean kill. And my zastava was a $799 package deal.wears gunworks Spartan and old many hand Leupold. My projectiles depend on the day....shot more deer with cup n core than with ttsx,but do load ttsx if TARGETED species is reds....the new found for me Speer 70 GRN has taken over ....for now anyway. Nothing high tech about my set up,but it pokes holes where it's pointed.

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Originally Posted by Scortched earth

@Thar you started it with your judgee east coast Taco scope comment.you wouldn’t say that to me in person now would you.
Now you’re saying my estimate is likely close.
@Tentman I suppose what I’m saying is that down the range with our comfy setups we are going to shoot our 223s better but take average joe out on the hunt with a million variables and live game he’s just as average with his 270 as his 223.
I think most would agree it’s a lot easier shooting well on paper.
Yep the heavy projectiles are going to help-what give us another 10-15% would you say?
@micky we all conspire for the quick clean kill but what percent do you say that is with the 223 ?
My guess was 60-75%now what’s yours ?

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I agreed with your average across all calibers. Not just with the .223. And with the caveat that "nailing them" with a bang flop is different to them running but still being dead close by - which is common. As to saying things to you in person - yup anytime - I don't think you would hit an old man :) .

wouldn't be able to hit you his % is too low:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Scortched earth

@Tahr
Average man doesn’t have a dog.top of the line gear top of the line access,60years experience,wiz bang bullets,gets excited sometimes,has a bad day,doesn’t come from the east coast.
Now how many of his 223 deer are anchored on the spot?
What’s your guess?
Think 60-75% is way off ?

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Well I class myself as an average guy from the Mainland, been hunting for 50 years near enough, don’t use a dog apart from taking my ESS for a walk with me now and again and certainly don’t use high end gear. Main rifle these days is a Howa 1500 in 223 with the Nikko Stirling scope it came with, although I occasionally swap out a GPO 4-16x50 which is really too bulky and heavy for my liking. One of my other rifles is a Win 70 223 fitted with a Hikmicro Alpex NV scope, again not real high end. Most animals are shot with good old 55 grainers, with some 73 ELDM’s used for longer shots with the Howa. Deer anchored on the spot are common, axis/neck shots taken when presented, but like @Thar I go for lung shot quite often so get the odd one that covers a bit of ground before dropping. Percentage dropped on the spot? Don’t know, don’t GAF, as long as animal dies quickly. If an animal runs a bit that’s when your tracking skills come into play. As said elsewhere you do lose the odd one or miss the odd shot. It sucks at the time but move on and learn from the experience.
Just my 2c.

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Originally Posted by Scortched earth

@Thar you started it with your judgee east coast Taco scope comment.you wouldn’t say that to me in person now would you.
Now you’re saying my estimate is likely close.
@Tentman I suppose what I’m saying is that down the range with our comfy setups we are going to shoot our 223s better but take average joe out on the hunt with a million variables and live game he’s just as average with his 270 as his 223.
I think most would agree it’s a lot easier shooting well on paper.
Yep the heavy projectiles are going to help-what give us another 10-15% would you say?
@micky we all conspire for the quick clean kill but what percent do you say that is with the 223 ?
My guess was 60-75%now what’s yours ?

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Just one big rhetorical question really. You haven’t defined “quick clean kill” or any kind of unacceptable distance run / staggered / tumbled from where they were hit. So it’s all a bit arm wavy.

There was a period 2016-2022 when I was shooting a lot of red deer, with various calibres from .224 to .308. I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference in shot reaction between a .223 Rem or a .243 Win assuming the same good shot placement. The 6.5mm and .308 Win hit them noticeably harder but seeing as how they were all shot in the same vital areas, the outcome was broadly similar. I think this thread has done a good job of debunking the kind of skepticism evident in your questions.

Really it’s a matter of you deciding how competent your average man is. My view is if he’s competent and knows how to kill deer quickly and cleanly, he’s gonna be just fine with a .223 Rem. Which is why the law - thankfully - is the way it is. In other countries maybe they’re just not as competent ;)

Im thinking back and really can't remember having lost an animal with the 223 at all. The 308 on the other hand I have had a few regrettable cockups with that over the years.
So why is that? I guess I have in the past taken some more marginal shots with the 308 that I would never have attempted with the 223.

@Tentman I think I defined it somewhere as anchored eg when I get over to where the deer was standing I’m getting my camera and knife out not starting a tracking job.yes we are going to track if needed but our percentage recovery is going to go down by an amount.it’s not optimal.
As for you Tahr do you wish to retract your smarmy east coast comment?
@flock did I ever say anywhere my percentage?no.I guessed an average.
60-75% going to 80 with a bigger cal.
What’s your guess mate?

Some are saying,with the right gear/pill they think 223 is just as effective as bigger cals maybe better.That’s their informed opinion.awesome.
Constructive.useful information.
Personally I don’t think it’s going to quite give us that greater percentage I still think we are going to anchor more with the bigger cal.

We’ve herd from some extremely competent 223 hunters here getting great results.talking with top guys isn’t average.This is a 175 page Good times thread. I suggest real world results wouldn’t be so flash.
I

This was all hashed over here.
https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....ubters-107732/

And it's pretty much the same ground.

What was interesting is the findings after time, of the OP and his personnel observance after some time using a 22 centerfire.

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So dragging this one up again.

I began this thread, and at that time I was convinced that I’d finally ‘nailed it’ and reached the end of my search for the ultimate medium game hunting rifle for this country. But after 6 months or so of hunting and observing the results of the 22 creed on deer, I’m moving on to something else. The 22 creed barrel is coming off and the original 358 win barrel is going back on.

I didn’t lose any deer that I pointed it at, but very nearly did. On a number of occasions….. If I had been hunting in ‘thicker’ country the results would have definitely been different. It was fine on the lighter animals when broadside, but lacking in penetration when quartering on or away.
Don’t get me wrong, the cartridge is accurate as hell and super easy to shoot. Brilliant for goats and lighter deer, but bigger reds (especially stags) it’s left wanting as far as I’m concerned.

All power to those getting after it with a .224 centrefire, but I won’t be me anymore.

Putting the old head on the block here, but it is what it is. Gave it a go, and admit it’s not for me.

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The 22s have their place. Im not going to knock anyone who uses one successfully. But there is room for accepting they are not the be all and end all, and that other cals might do things better.

[QUOTE=whanahuia;1718423]This was all hashed over here.
https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....ubters-107732/

And it's pretty much the same ground.

What was interesting is the findings after time, of the OP and his personnel observance after some time using a 22 centerfire.

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So dragging this one up again.

I began this thread, and at that time I was convinced that I’d finally ‘nailed it’ and reached the end of my search for the ultimate medium game hunting rifle for this country. But after 6 months or so of hunting and observing the results of the 22 creed on deer, I’m moving on to something else. The 22 creed barrel is coming off and the original 358 win barrel is going back on.

I didn’t lose any deer that I pointed it at, but very nearly did. On a number of occasions….. If I had been hunting in ‘thicker’ country the results would have definitely been different. It was fine on the lighter animals when broadside, but lacking in penetration when quartering on or away.
Don’t get me wrong, the cartridge is accurate as hell and super easy to shoot. Brilliant for goats and lighter deer, but bigger reds (especially stags) it’s left wanting as far as I’m concerned.

All power to those getting after it with a .224 centrefire, but I won’t be me anymore.

Putting the old head on the block here, but it is what it is. Gave it a go, and admit it’s not for me./QUOTE]

The 22s have their place. Im not going to knock anyone who uses one successfully. But there is room for accepting they are not the be all and end all, and that other cals might do things better.

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So what's the plan for the old barrel?

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Form from Shoot 2 Hunt academy in the States did a couple of excellent podcasts (episdoes 469 and 470) on the Exo Mountain Gear channel "The Hunt Backcountry Podcast". He comes from a commercial background and basically his argument is that hunters do not shoot as well as they think they do and will perform better under pressure using a lighter calibre. He quoted up to a 30% success rate for guys using magnums on elk. Pretty bad when you listen to the stats. I'd also be listening to @Tahr, he speaks with authority on the subject. I'm definitely sticking with my 223 and 7mm08... although a 6 creed....

There can be so many factors at play when it comes to individuals. Theres guys who have a wealth of experience, and really any calibre you give them, they will succeed with it. Theres guys who it won't matter what gun you give them, the excitement will get the better of them. I once had hold of a pig a fella had wounded. I asked him to shoot it in the ear with his 222. He came up along side me and shot a neat hole in its earlobe, and after further instruction, said he wondered why Id asked him to shoot it in the ear? He was amping.
Theres guys who go too big because they lack confidence, and really should just do more practice with a standard cal. But most guys really fit in the middle and get out hunting as often as work and family allow. Dont have easy access to a range to do a lot of shooting, or hand load.
When I was doing guided meat hunts, over half of projectiles did not land where aimed. And ranges were never long. Didn't matter if gun was old or new. Cheap or top of line. big or small in calibre.

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Originally Posted by Snoppernator

Form from Shoot 2 Hunt academy in the States did a couple of excellent podcasts (episdoes 469 and 470) on the Exo Mountain Gear channel "The Hunt Backcountry Podcast". He comes from a commercial background and basically his argument is that hunters do not shoot as well as they think they do and will perform better under pressure using a lighter calibre. He quoted up to a 30% success rate for guys using magnums on elk. Pretty bad when you listen to the stats. I'd also be listening to @Tahr, he speaks with authority on the subject. I'm definitely sticking with my 223 and 7mm08... although a 6 creed....

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While I'm as big of a .223 enthusiast as anyone, I have yet to see any convincing evidence to support the claims by "formidilosus"

His optics testing cracks me up. Dropping scopes from varying heights and then getting surprised when they don't hold zero. It's so over the top for normal use hunting optics

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Originally Posted by Preacher

His optics testing cracks me up. Dropping scopes from varying heights and then getting surprised when they don't hold zero. It's so over the top for normal use hunting optics

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I get his Optics testing to an extent, a lot of folk over there only get a few opportunities to hunt each year, and large expense and only a few shot opportunities so you want a system you can trust 100%.

Here we go hunting whenever and if we have a whoopsie and then miss an animal, big whoop.
Just check zero sometime and get back out the next weekend.

I read the tests and reviews on the Slide but I'm not a fanatical follower, most of my rifles are still rocking 'unreliable' Leupolds that for some strange reason haven't exploded into bits, they just keep doing there job :D

Yeah I get that to some degree. But they are for hunting elk, not Taliban. There is no reason for the gear to be dropped on itself. If they are so careless with the equipment then maybe they shouldn't be hunting in the first instance.