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Not 1. And when i.hunt deer i only take 30.06. Fallow and sambar only.(different loads & rifle) All 30.06. Nothing over 120yards. Know blokes have used it but later went bigger. Why, considered it boarder line.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
Don't take this the wrong way. I know I'm not a perfect shot, that's why I limit my range and won't use a 223.
And I'm sure some are capable. But many are not and a bit more bang imo will help.
Just my 2c
As a farmer/hunter with alot of fallow and pigs and goats on my property, I never concerned myself with what rifle or cal hunters chose to use. or where the wished to shoot them. Though if asked Id say shoot them in the shoulder every time. Meat damage is a consequence of a projectile that worked and a projectile that landed in the right place!Quote:
Originally Posted by 7mm Rem Mag
I watched two red hinds at about hundy yards tonight.i could easily have taken both with single round.224 Berger 53 GRN in bread basket 100% confident of it. Could have neck shot first one,chest shot second one.but I didn't have permission so drove away happy. I could have done same with .270 and my confidence level would be no higher.under 150 yards I KNOW damn well I can put that wee pill where it will do the most harm.... As for wapiti..... A well known ex culler made observation they were easier to kill than reds as no more bullet resistance but bigger target area.... Hard to argue with that logic.
I only have my 308 and im dam good with it.Its been on holiday for 4 months,she doent lke the cold.But il take her out for a coffee early next month at the range,befor we meet up with some deers.
Go the 223s,shoot as many deer as you can,just practice shooting match boxs at 200yrds first.
Picked up a couple of fallow at work this week. A little yearling buck and a mature doe. Venison went to the landowner and volunteer predator trappers.
Troy AR straight-pull. Frontier 5.56mm 62 gr. spire point.
Attachment 282222
Attachment 282223
Real easy to go wrong with larger cals too, I'm currently doing a job on a mates farm and he offered to take me out for a deer.
I don't have a rifle with me so used his 300Win Mag, overpowered scope on a light light rifle shooting a large case.
Bit of a shit show, 3 shots for a large bodied stag at around 150m but got the job done, from the looks of things these projectiles were almost out the other side before expanding.
Horsepower certainly wasn't the winner here
I've shot a 7mm Mag. Kicks a bit. Personally wouldn't buy oneQuote:
Originally Posted by Deanohit
OLDBLOKE, after 179 pages these modern hunters still have to justify their use of a 223
Whereas real hunters use a 222.
You forgot the Hornet.Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyJason
[QUOTE]I think the .223 won a reputation through the pros using it and lost it through the amateurs using it. The pros and the experienced are still doing OK with the 55 grn cup and core. Even better with lighter monos and "modern" bullets./QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
This is going to ramble a bit, but hope it makes sense.
statement #1
Ive shot none with the new heavies. Probably 1-200 deer and pigs with 55gr. I know Ive never lost a deer with them. I can't remember loosing a pig, but I think I probably have. We tend to forget our stuff ups.
Statement #2
over the years of taking people hunting, there were a number of occasions where I came home really frustrated and upset at things Id witnessed or peoples decision making processes. My wonderful partner sat me down and said, listen, you have been doing this since the age of 12 and had a father, uncles and grandfather to teach you. You had thousands of acres and lots of animals to learn on. I think you sometimes forget that others dont.
Statement #3
projectiles are incredibly lethal! So much so that I think many of us dont take time to think how lethal they are! There is not a single cartridge or case combo that I would choose to stand in front of and really any thing anytime to shoot an animal with. the probability is it will die!
How lethal? If I had to choose one cartridge to do all my hunting with. If we were only allowed one gun. It would be the .22 long rifle!
Ill continue this thought train later, just saw the time and work calls.
[QUOTE=whanahuia;1720059]So with all the above,Quote:
I think the .223 won a reputation through the pros using it and lost it through the amateurs using it. The pros and the experienced are still doing OK with the 55 grn cup and core. Even better with lighter monos and "modern" bullets./QUOTE]
This is going to ramble a bit, but hope it makes sense.
statement #1
Ive shot none with the new heavies. Probably 1-200 deer and pigs with 55gr. I know Ive never lost a deer with them. I can't remember loosing a pig, but I think I probably have. We tend to forget our stuff ups.
Statement #2
over the years of taking people hunting, there were a number of occasions where I came home really frustrated and upset at things Id witnessed or peoples decision making processes. My wonderful partner sat me down and said, listen, you have been doing this since the age of 12 and had a father, uncles and grandfather to teach you. You had thousands of acres and lots of animals to learn on. I think you sometimes forget that others dont.
Statement #3
projectiles are incredibly lethal! So much so that I think many of us dont take time to think how lethal they are! There is not a single cartridge or case combo that I would choose to stand in front of and really any thing anytime to shoot an animal with. the probability is it will die!
How lethal? If I had to choose one cartridge to do all my hunting with. If we were only allowed one gun. It would be the .22 long rifle!
Ill continue this thought train later, just saw the time and work calls.
Though I haven't used the new projectiles and twist rates, I see the guys who have put up strong evidence of their use, Like @Tahr and @gimp, And I think Im happy to say that this brings the 223 more in line with .243. Which I always considered a good minimum.
But also I put both of them, and others, in the category of potentially like me, having forgotten what its like to not have that gained experience, and that things maybe easier for them than they realise at times.
I have noticed though in my time, that bigger more powerful cartridges do offer some advantage as side effect when a shot is badly placed. But again no experience with the new heavies to compare.
This thread has made me think, and I considered setting up a fast twist .223, and once I would have. But I did my experimentation when I was younger. I understand really well how the traditional cup and core in the medium range of cals works and I dont feel I can be any more successful with the newer alternatives. And as Ive aged I find a distaste for testing my equipment or myself on game animals unless I suspect a real advantage.
SO I think there is a dividing line as a sensible minimum. The 223 with standard projectiles probably sits on one side. The .223 with fast twist and heavies on the other as a potential ethical minimum for big game for the majority of nz hunters, no matter age or experience etc.
so, again, the 55 grain in the .223 is too little and not enough gun for deer, whereas the heavier fast twist 70 - 80 grain bullets make the .223 as good as the larger calibers? Is this where we are at with the .223 now?
Because it thats where we are at then I am a bit disappointed.
Nah, I think we’re probably at the stage where contributors to the thread are going around in circles a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Duxbury
There was an episode of NZ hunter adventures where Willy was dressed in 1960s clothing and carrying period gear including a Sako .222 and original SP ammo. He and Greg were with a retired NZFS culler called Derek. Willie shot a few reds and there was one scene where they tipped over some red hinds in open tussock country. I think that’s when Derek fired a rifle with a muzzle brake and Greg was right next to him and got deafened.
Anyway I hope I’m remembering it correctly but it’s stuck in my mind because to me it showed naysayers what to expect with traditional .224” 55gr or 62gr soft points on standard meat animals. Shooting forward into the crease, quartering away slightly, animal staggers around a bit, drops dead. That’s been my experience with .223 and Belmont bulk .223 55gr ammo. Goats, pigs, fallow, red hinds and spikers.
I’m pretty sure this got discussed on here at the time. I’ve just looked to see if I can find the episode online but too hard, not on TV NZ anymore.
I liken the .223 Rem evolution to the very recent changes by Tikka to its .243 twist rates. Unless you’ve shot traditional .243 alongside modern fast twist 6 mm, it might sounded exaggerated when I say the fast twist really has dramatically improved the calibre’s capabilities. A traditional Sierra ProHunter 100gr versus a 108gr ELD-M, you have to see the latter in action at 500m to really appreciate just how much more capable it is. But the ProHunter still kills deer just like the 55gr bulk Belmont ammo.
Well said you two... The .224s are ,always have been and always will be very capable IF you place shot with care... Yes a heavier pill allows deeper penertration and more bone breaking raw power,but you still have to hit animal in right place... Nothing short of a RPG will kill cleanly with a shot too far back and too low,even the big 30-40-45 calibre magnums won't clean and gut a deer well enough to drop it in short order... And mentioning trebly....they USUALLY were using a softer 50 GRN projectiles that was more explody than the harder 55s used in 223.... Back in the earlier years.....so more than weight and twist rate to it... Good projectiles choice and good shot placement is key... No matter the cartridge.
[QUOTE=whanahuia;1720059]1st statement is a real eye opener.Quote:
I think the .223 won a reputation through the pros using it and lost it through the amateurs using it. The pros and the experienced are still doing OK with the 55 grn cup and core. Even better with lighter monos and "modern" bullets./QUOTE]
This is going to ramble a bit, but hope it makes sense.
statement #1
Ive shot none with the new heavies. Probably 1-200 deer and pigs with 55gr. I know Ive never lost a deer with them. I can't remember loosing a pig, but I think I probably have. We tend to forget our stuff ups.
Statement #2
over the years of taking people hunting, there were a number of occasions where I came home really frustrated and upset at things Id witnessed or peoples decision making processes. My wonderful partner sat me down and said, listen, you have been doing this since the age of 12 and had a father, uncles and grandfather to teach you. You had thousands of acres and lots of animals to learn on. I think you sometimes forget that others dont.
Statement #3
projectiles are incredibly lethal! So much so that I think many of us dont take time to think how lethal they are! There is not a single cartridge or case combo that I would choose to stand in front of and really any thing anytime to shoot an animal with. the probability is it will die!
How lethal? If I had to choose one cartridge to do all my hunting with. If we were only allowed one gun. It would be the .22 long rifle!
Ill continue this thought train later, just saw the time and work calls.
I never had a mentor. I think having one would make a huge difference. I don't think we have the deer numbers here that you have. So, perhaps fewer learning opportunities.
Seems I underestimate the 223.
