https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9FzVhw8_bY
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QUID PRO QUO my friend rossi. I fear you may have bested me in this exchange.
no way brother . . . your holding your own
i was driving back from the farm this arvo thinking its a very good thing for this thread if you have 2, or even better, a few shooters trying to accomplish different things with this cartridge.
it was always my intention to keep this thread going over time as new developments occurred . . . so i hope that you do stay on hollowpoints for awhile Moa and see how they work for your style of hunting/shooting and report back here, you never know i might even turn to the darkside if your results are convincing.
R.
Moa hunter and Rossi, love the banter this is the way the forum should operate. Everyone one has their opinions and ideas just love the way you are having a go at each other without any offence or bad feelings.
Think a 45/70 single shot will be the next big purchase...
I have suppressed a Bergara barrel in 45/70 this avo.it is a take down model. It is quite cool, it comes at 20" long and factory threaded at 5/8-24. I cut it down a little bit and rethreaded at 18x1 which leave more meat and fitted an overbarrel suppressor magnum on it.
Attachment 87787
Just a quick picture.
Hi Friwi, great choice of cal and shooter.It is warming to think that the contributors to this thread may have helped guide you !
very cool Friwi . . . what optic are you going to use
Dear Rossi to further my understanding of the Gospels, I have finished reading two of Ross Seyfield's writings translated from the original Greek of 45/70 AD. I don't wish to appear overly pious however, Ross does speak of "coveting" a certain firearm. As we both know, 'To Covet' is to break a commandment, the tenth to be precise. If that wasn't bad enough he owned a Colt 45 Peacemaker which we also both know is referred to as 'The Devils Right Hand' by Steve Earl in his inspired Gospel writings known today as the 'Copperhead Road album' and I quote "Nothing touched the trigger but the devils right hand" So Rossi, please don't like Lot's wife at Soddom and Gomorah look back at the flatpoints you have left behind but instead look forward to the bright future, a 450 grn HP 10% Tin shining in Gods enlightenment lest you too be turned to a pillar of salt.
It is not mine but a customer's one who probably share the same religion as you two guys :-)
I am more modern, playing with a 458 socom ;-)
How outstanding, the Pope is tuned to the same music I love and I'm not even Catholic. Although sinful to admit, the chorus line in 'That Bastard Son' of "I just want liquor and dirty whores " is quite appealing. Just make sure you don't get caught singing it round the house !! Then there's the chorus line to Banjo Odyssey " I guess that she's my cousin but she needs some sweet lovin anyway" Darn good band to listen to whilst working on gun projects.
its a nice looking rig and threading/crown job . . . looking at the suppressor i am thinkin he might want to consider another 3 modules, mine needed them to get decent noise reduction.
458 socom has such a cool name . . . just saying it makes ya think of Special Ops etc
now i dont think its Cricket Moa to imply with biblical references that somehow your adversary " Plays for the Other team " so to speak, even if its a rather vague reference . . . am i taking this out of context, definitely, desperate times call for desparate measures.
anyway . . .
i do think that anything over 405grns. is getting into Cape Buffalo territory . . . animals in NZ just arent that Big and tough to need more bullet weight, 400 is overkill now.
ramble alert . . .
last time i went up the Hill with my Son to show him how the .45/70 is working, he has seen the .30cals in action so kinda knew what to expect . . . he was amazed at the power of the .45cal 340s
they didnt fall down they were smashed down, the Big Billy was hit front on and his chest collapsed in on itself, fast, like being hit with a sledgehammer . . the others were side on shoots with full thru n thru penetration with bullets hitting the rocks behind them with a SMACK . . . seriously dude i dont think you need another 100+ grains
but you want what you want, but talking time is over . . . " lets get it on " . . . get those bullets and get out there, do whats needed to make it happen.
i know i won't be doing any work with the .45 for a few months at least, busy trying to get the last diehard Rabbits cleanned up over the Winter, i have shot most of the stupid/unlucky ones . . . as a bonus i have the .223 setup finally sorted with its own scope ( VX3 4.5-14 Varmint Ret ) which is now a machine
Attachment 87803
Rossi how come you can't use the. 45 on the bunnies.... Would turn into instant fertiliser :O_O:
never thought of it to be honest 223 . . . . Moa describes the results with a .44 on Hares so a .45 should work fine
which brings me to another ramble alert . . .
to me shooting Hares/Rabbits etc to get your eye in with a rifle setup is a great idea . . . if you can hit a little critter at 100+ yards your good to go on bigger game, move the range out to when you cant hit them, you have learnt something important then.
as an interesting historical note . . . as Elmer is credited with the .44mag
Ross Seyfield did a lot to bring the .475 Linebaugh & the man to the publics attention thru his writing in GUNS & AMMO . . . back in the day.
i can remember well the look of the BIG bullets he was using . . . there is nodoubt from that time on i was a convert.
in some ways i consider myself lucky to have observed the steady rise of the BIG bores . . . bless the US for all its faults it has given us some great toys to play with.
ramble over . . . R
Dear Rossi and 223nut, I did have the 44 zeroed at 100 mtrs but found that I would over-shoot big game animals because of excitement and rushing whereas Hares I would never miss. What I have done is re-sight the 44 dead on at 60 mtrs exactly the same as the 22 with subs. So now the shooting that I do with the 22 is directly transferable practice for the 44 if that makes sense. I would be very interested in what range rossi has found works best. I shoot over a dog for big game and rabbits.
Dear rossi, you are 'straw clutching' at best and we both know it. To even hint that my reference to Lot's wife carried a tiny suggestion of getting your targets confused. We are both men of Honor and I would never stoop to such tactics. You are capable of much better humor filled retorts.
As to Buffalo, I owned the biggest herd of Nth American Bison in NZ for a while (50 animals) and I can state with my hand on a stack of Bibles that a 300 grn XTP at 1025 fps is not enough for a bison. In fact a 405 grn at sub velocities would not be enough. At higher velocity yes. And while I am on this bit about Bison there are no doubt blokes reading this and wondering 'why so much religion boys' well guess the full name of the chap who made the Sharps Rifles - Christian Sharps !! So Rossi and I haven't started something, we are just following those who have gone before.
My thoughts on bullet weight and performance are thus: We want stopping power and trajectory and subsonic quietness. Velocity with subs is a constant, we cant increase velocity for more target energy and a flatter trajectory. A long high BC bullet will give us a bit better trajectory and retained energy. So Hollowpointing allows a projectile to be made longer at the same weight. I think the Outlaw State designs probably have it for big diameter calibers. Look at some of those LeHigh subsonic bullets all Hollowpoints. The other important matter is energy transfer. My 300 grn XTP's will pass through like your 405's on fallow and small pigs which means that we are not achieving the optimum shock wave effect in the game. We all want humane quick kills. Here is an example to consider, I remember reading about the bloke who developed the 220 swift. He machined up some solids ( to withstand the velocity) for testing on rabbits. A feeding rabbit was selected, at the first shot the rabbit paused and then continued feeding, at the second shot it laid its ears flat, the third shot was with a projectile that had grooves machined in it, the rabbit was cut in half. All shots hit the target. I would like to achieve that 'instant rigor' effect I described happens with Hares and Paradise rabbits, or as near as could be.
PS if you are interested I have a 2506 AI that is very effective on 'the last rabbits' you are welcome to borrow
I wonder if longer bullets with hollow points don't imply a slightly faster twist rate for stability?
The top black powder silhouette shooters in the USA are now using Krieger barrels with 1 in 17 or 1 in 16" twist ( I believe) with 500+ grains bullets in their "45" rifles. I ll try to dig out the articles from Mike Venturino on that subject.
this may be of interest to those who are looking for the perfect cast bullet . . online bullet design by mountainmolds.com
top left of the page is the place to start . . . its pritty cool
Attachment 88472
i am very happy with the noise reduction of the DPT as it is . . . so often ya hear how loud the big bores are going to be compared to smaller calibers ( obviously theyre going to be ) but personally i think its overstated, maybe their expectations were to high to start with . . . would be interesting if someone would keep adding baffles to see how it would go.
i can remember Greg showing me the 405s he had . . . look forward to getting your opinion on how they go on paper & animals
also look forward to how the scope works out . . . R
I wanted to ask this too @rossi.45 . Using subs is it hearing safe or you still need hearing protection?
Poured some lead this week into the new to me RCBS 405 using straight WW. Was surprised to get projectiles in the 428-430gr range. Wasn't expecting this much difference compared to #2 alloy. Couldn't check diameter as my son used my digital caliper as a hammer to bang a nail back on the deck so its poked now. Toddlers and precision tools aren't a good mix.
Attachment 88606
@Boar Freak i would describe the noise levels when i am aiming away from bush or anything that will reflect the noise as a booomff sound, not much louder than my .30 caliber subs.
definitely louder in the scrub or aiming towards a hillside etc . . . but not annoying or troublesome to Dogs who are use to gunfire.
never checked the weight of any bullets . . . i have a good casting techneque now and close inspection of every bullet sorts out the obvious problems, if they dont look perfect they go back in the pot . . . if i was going longer range i maybe would.
your Son sounds like a rascal . . . bless
lets hope the bullet is at least 1 or 2 thou over groove diameter
look forward to hearing how you get on with the 405s . . . . it is one good lookin bullet
R
I stood, waited, stroke of twelve at crossroads
Song by the 'Kongos' played to my fear
'Come with me now' 'Come with me now'
Ready to sell my soul tonight, perfect cast bullets my sought plight.
But just as 'they' said, the Devil wouldn't even take a Bite.
"Where's your guitar ? I've brought mine - boy- lets play.
I'll make thee the best there is for thy soul.
It's not for to play that I come here tonight but perfect bullets are my trade.
"Perfect bullets for a soul... in this box you might find..., but sign you must before you look!"
Just in time decision not made,
Elmer is my Proctor
I turned and walked away
oh great and wise ones I hope you dont object to me injecting my humble opinion on your findings????
I do not own one of the great black hole barrels like your most worthy selves merely a humble chinese made rifle in a cartridge designed by a russian fella for to be made by the people ofr the people to kill the people...but maybe that would lead one to think of its big brother round not the humble x39 I cart around....
Ive tried many supersonic rounds and yip at close range they do the job no complaints
my subsonic loads use Roberts great 151grn hoho hollowpoints which look and behave pretty much like the before mentioned winchester subs...which reminds me you DONT need to melt .22lr rounds down to find hardness...it can be done with pencils from the stationary shop..... different hardness pencils will and wont mark different hardness cast lead (google is your friend)
because I dont have access to goat shooting 90% of the sub loads fired have either been plinking or hares...with the important/relevant ones being to kill my house muttons wandering around in paddock 30-50 yards.... to gain expansion/limit penertration I used old school trick and got out stanley knife and cut four slits down the tip /devided into quarters if you like... about 3-4mm deep/down into projectile sides..... so far Ive only managed to recover one and it measures 14mm wide so close to double diameter.
it will work with the 44mag moa hunter mentioned before but the law of unforeseen circumstances comes into play and may indeed OVEREXPAND at high velocity.you could also insert/glue a single steel shotgun pellet into cavity to assist expansion starting(#2 works perfectly in 151s) the theory isnt new as its what the fancy plastic bit on ballistic tips does.
ordered these 2 molds today . . . the 360grn. (left) is i think about as big a flatpoint (meplat) which is practical for feeding in the Marlin, time will tell, may have to single feed . . . the 405grn. (right) is the backup plan, both will be paper patched.
these bullet designs are closer to my idea of ideal . . BIG flatpoints to smash into the animal with enough weight to drive thru the animal from any angle, no expansion required . . we will see
Attachment 89189
@rossi.45 you may have mentioned earlier in the thread but cant seem to find it, what sort of alloy are you casting with for your wide meplat bullets?
Assuming your having good success with little expansion the alloy could be quite hard?
Thanks
at the moment 25% wheelweights / 75% pure lead
ramble alert.
i dont look or plan for expansion with cast bullets anymore, its a deadend road to me . . . the question is why i wouldnt want expansion when it sems to be a mantra to so many shooters
the easy/quick answer is its not worth the effort and the choices you end up making to get it for the animals i target at the ranges i want to shoot out to. . . better to rely on more reliable/repeatable performance with good bullet design, accurate bullet placement . . . thats the direction i am travel in, so far its working OK and i plan to run with it for awhile longer and see where it goes.
[ATTACH]89205
This is only a three year old bull, a really big mature one will go 7 feet at the hump
Bloody hell,!!, where's my Sharps!!. :P
poohseventy with 170grn speers-------.308 with 180grn maybe????
in shadow of horn or....... level with same JUST right of the light coloured fur where it goes sort of chocolate like but is still long??????
yip the sharps would just feel right/correct.
12gauge with solids...
416 rem mag. don't know whether solids or softs
i know how big they are face to face . . . back in the day when visiting an animal park a BIG old grumpy Bull Bison took exception to me looking at him, wanted to get thru a fence to get at my mothers youngest son, very impressive animal, surprised how tall they were.
but . . . they're not bullet proof
watch this clip if you want to see a .45/70 with 405grn bullets do the business
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkssHWWJWjk
. . . or even arrow proof
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yce8rhHpm4
Ahh, good on ya Rossi. I looked at both those clips and the first animal was pole axed for sure but then he was only a two year old meat job and probably a steer by the looks. Don't know why they shot him twice. Always hard to tell when listening to gun shots and not seeing the gun but would it be a fair guess that they weren't subs?? The second animal with the bow was a nice three year type and things went just as you would expect with a bow. There was another clip following I saw with a bison hunt 2015. A good sized bull was shot with a big pill out of a 30 06 and it just broke the right shoulder and the bull was left hobbling round waiting to be finished.
When the skin hunters were operating from camps on the red river and in the Texas Panhandle migration, the shooter would ride out and shoot animals on the edge of the herd from horseback ( not wanting to push the main bulk of the herd on or away which would draw the shot animals away too). They would shoot them in the heart / lungs and by the time the shooter had a dozen shot the first ones would be falling over. The skinners would then come out with a wagon and peel em as the herd grazed away from the fallen.
The best place I found to shoot big ones was in the Atlas joint ( where the first vertebrae meets the skull ) Those big bulls are seriously tough and strong. The bones are massive and the muscle and cartilage protecting the chest is like armour and not like domestic cattle. Those horns are for fighting and sharp yet a bull never gets poked by a horn in the neck / shoulder / chest. The hide and muscle is just too tough. Anyway if I were using subs in my 45/70 short ( when I get it finished ) to shoot a serious bison I would be looking for a 600 grainer- with a Big Metplat !!
Confessional, The poem was a way of thanking you for saving my soul. Did you listen to the Kongos ??
there are no Bison where i live, a few Reds, Fallow and Goats about which i will concentrate on in this thread . . . i will leave the Bison to you Moa
R.
Fair enough Rossi, but it was one of us who introduced the Bison Factor by writing that a 45/70 could shoot clear through one and I don't remember it being me.
have you lads contemplated rolling your own black powder to go with this????