Thread: Help Stop 1080, please sign

Originally Posted by bing

This is an aside (not really 1080 discussion but related). One of the groups I work with is trialing a prototype trap or maybe it's a pre production trap that is self setting and be capable of 100 kills from install and no other maintenance. I've helped to set it up and it's proving a winner so far, operating as claimed and killed a half dozen possums in a short period without issue. We've a trail camera on it and will look at the footage next week.

I'm thinking that this is the probably the sort of level of trap development and sophistication we need to be operating at to negate the use of 1080. From memory the cost is about $350.

Bing, that sounds promising ah? It would be interesting to see some of the footage from your trail camera if it could be uploaded.

Originally Posted by Mr Browning

Bing, that sounds promising ah? It would be interesting to see some of the footage from your trail camera if it could be uploaded.

If I'm able to will be glad to. It's a community based non profit group so everything has to go past committee and be approved etc. If they give the ok then no problem.

Originally Posted by bing

If I'm able to will be glad to. It's a community based non profit group so everything has to go past committee and be approved etc. If they give the ok then no problem.

Sounds like the AT220: https://nzautotraps.com/

The use of photoeyes (infra-red beam) on the one that can do mice seems dangerous for non-targets.

Looks promising otherwise - I see several potential issues that might be exposed quickly such as the radius of the corners of the enclosure being to sharp - needs to be a smoother radius too prevent rats chewing them open (smoother than a rats mouth gape can grab onto). A rat/several rats could get into it and destroy the wiring very quickly.
The pull type trigger might be a barrier to efficient control of rats as it can be variable whether they will do this. While the AT220 doesn't seem to be targeted for the stoats I would be as bold to say that they would not set off such a trigger. Bait life will also be an issue - I've informally tested "long-life" baits that are supposed to last for months that have no smell after days - Suspicious at best on their long-term efficacy.

Some learnings from the Goodnature A12 and A24 traps (CO2 self resetting possums and rat/stoat traps) could be transferred to speed up development it seems.

Originally Posted by Makros

Sounds like the AT220: https://nzautotraps.com/

The use of photoeyes (infra-red beam) on the one that can do mice seems dangerous for non-targets.

Looks promising otherwise - I see several potential issues that might be exposed quickly such as the radius of the corners of the enclosure being to sharp - needs to be a smoother radius too prevent rats chewing them open (smoother than a rats mouth gape can grab onto). A rat/several rats could get into it and destroy the wiring very quickly.
The pull type trigger might be a barrier to efficient control of rats as it can be variable whether they will do this. While the AT220 doesn't seem to be targeted for the stoats I would be as bold to say that they would not set off such a trigger. Bait life will also be an issue - I've informally tested "long-life" baits that are supposed to last for months that have no smell after days - Suspicious at best on their long-term efficacy.

Some learnings from the Goodnature A12 and A24 traps (CO2 self resetting possums and rat/stoat traps) could be transferred to speed up development it seems.

I think DOC should invest in some and see how effective they are. Clearly Twig and Tweet are pushing the govt to increase the 1080 use.

While DOC is "going to do a million hectares of aerial pest control, which is more than ever before", Forest and Bird is now calling for the Government to increase its rat control programmes.

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-...7oD_RdLzdxCXDk

Maybe they could use some of the 11 million in protection money the govt gave them to actually do something.

Originally Posted by Mr Browning

Bing, that sounds promising ah? It would be interesting to see some of the footage from your trail camera if it could be uploaded.

Mr Browning, Mr Bing is referencing the Alberta Rat Line. I have approach DOC here - normal drill visit the Minister explain how it works etc - result zero interest from DOC.

The Rat Line is a wide area kept clear of vegetation with bait stations randomly scattered like land mines across it. Rats hate crossing open ground and will run from one bait station to the next, stopping to take advantage of the handily placed refreshments. I never saw any evidence of rats around grain stores, Barley silage or feedlots when I worked in Alberta.

There is no doubt that 1080 poison has a dramatic positive effect on forest plants. However it kills any vertebrate and invertebrate life forms that ingest it.
The only place for it is as a once only knock down tool followed by ground based control for fenced predator free inland islands. Even then it is difficult to justify such gross cruelty to sentient animals.

Much of the push for continuing the use of 1080 comes from the idea that this will 'save the birds'. But it is not pest animals that caused the rapid sometimes sudden extinction of native bird populations, it was actually bird diseases that came here with introduced birds. Blackbirds as an example have no special defences that protect them from Rats and Stoats yet they thrive on the bush edge where native birds struggle.


The ONLY way to save endangered native birds is stop poison drops and use ALL of that money to establish inland islands for those birds in areas where remnant populations still remain. These will be areas where there is less introduced disease and where there are bird populations that have gone through a genetic bottleneck and now have some natural resistance to build from. Start spending $ 100 mil per year on fenced sanctuaries see what happens

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

There is no doubt that 1080 poison has a dramatic positive effect on forest plants. However it kills any vertebrate and invertebrate life forms that ingest it.
The only place for it is as a once only knock down tool followed by ground based control for fenced predator free inland islands. Even then it is difficult to justify such gross cruelty to sentient animals.

Much of the push for continuing the use of 1080 comes from the idea that this will 'save the birds'. But it is not pest animals that caused the rapid sometimes sudden extinction of native bird populations, it was actually bird diseases that came here with introduced birds. Blackbirds as an example have no special defences that protect them from Rats and Stoats yet they thrive on the bush edge where native birds struggle.


The ONLY way to save endangered native birds is stop poison drops and use ALL of that money to establish inland islands for those birds in areas where remnant populations still remain. These will be areas where there is less introduced disease and where there are bird populations that have gone through a genetic bottleneck and now have some natural resistance to build from. Start spending $ 100 mil per year on fenced sanctuaries see what happens

Do you have any evidence for this? They are big statements.

Originally Posted by Tahr

Do you have any evidence for this? They are big statements.

Hi @Tahr, in answer to your request for evidence for my statements: Paragraph 1 - 1080 poison is cruel without doubt so well proven that I don't believe you would debate that point. The same for the poisoning of vertebrates and invertebrates alike.

Para 2: If you look at the extinctions of birds like the NZ Native Quail Coturnix Novaezelandiae , this bird was common across the Nth Sth and Great Barrier Islands, so common that daily bags of 100 were easily shot. Then simultaneously they disappeared. Bird life international lists the cause as 'diseases from introduced game birds' The following link will show you how extensive the problem is - http://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar_...l=1&oi=scholar

The inland sanctuary Islands is a 'no-brainer' we already see how these work - how birds move to safe areas to breed and then move out into the wider area. The same concept can also be seen working with marine sanctuaries.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Hi @Tahr, in answer to your request for evidence for my statements: Paragraph 1 - 1080 poison is cruel without doubt so well proven that I don't believe you would debate that point. The same for the poisoning of vertebrates and invertebrates alike.

Para 2: If you look at the extinctions of birds like the NZ Native Quail Coturnix Novaezelandiae , this bird was common across the Nth Sth and Great Barrier Islands, so common that daily bags of 100 were easily shot. Then simultaneously they disappeared. Bird life international lists the cause as 'diseases from introduced game birds' The following link will show you how extensive the problem is - http://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar_...l=1&oi=scholar

The inland sanctuary Islands is a 'no-brainer' we already see how these work - how birds move to safe areas to breed and then move out into the wider area. The same concept can also be seen working with marine sanctuaries.

Sorry Sorry Wrong link attached earlierhttp://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar_url?url=http://www.academia.edu/download/43426122/malcolm_journal_club.pdf&hl=en&sa=X&scisig=AAGBfm2 dpJz1fGs4vz8WQH8lm3y9SreNCw&nossl=1&oi=scholarr

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Hi @Tahr, in answer to your request for evidence for my statements: Paragraph 1 - 1080 poison is cruel without doubt so well proven that I don't believe you would debate that point. The same for the poisoning of vertebrates and invertebrates alike.

Para 2: If you look at the extinctions of birds like the NZ Native Quail Coturnix Novaezelandiae , this bird was common across the Nth Sth and Great Barrier Islands, so common that daily bags of 100 were easily shot. Then simultaneously they disappeared. Bird life international lists the cause as 'diseases from introduced game birds' The following link will show you how extensive the problem is - http://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar_...l=1&oi=scholar

The inland sanctuary Islands is a 'no-brainer' we already see how these work - how birds move to safe areas to breed and then move out into the wider area. The same concept can also be seen working with marine sanctuaries.

Sorry Sorry Wrong link attached earlier http://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar?...=1&oi=scholart Click on link and go to the third paper down which is by 'Smith'

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

There is no doubt that 1080 poison has a dramatic positive effect on forest plants. However it kills any vertebrate and invertebrate life forms that ingest it.
The only place for it is as a once only knock down tool followed by ground based control for fenced predator free inland islands. Even then it is difficult to justify such gross cruelty to sentient animals.

Much of the push for continuing the use of 1080 comes from the idea that this will 'save the birds'. But it is not pest animals that caused the rapid sometimes sudden extinction of native bird populations, it was actually bird diseases that came here with introduced birds. Blackbirds as an example have no special defences that protect them from Rats and Stoats yet they thrive on the bush edge where native birds struggle.


The ONLY way to save endangered native birds is stop poison drops and use ALL of that money to establish inland islands for those birds in areas where remnant populations still remain. These will be areas where there is less introduced disease and where there are bird populations that have gone through a genetic bottleneck and now have some natural resistance to build from. Start spending $ 100 mil per year on fenced sanctuaries see what happens

Now that will bring out the trolls from under the bridge

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Mr Browning, Mr Bing is referencing the Alberta Rat Line. I have approach DOC here - normal drill visit the Minister explain how it works etc - result zero interest from DOC.

The Rat Line is a wide area kept clear of vegetation with bait stations randomly scattered like land mines across it. Rats hate crossing open ground and will run from one bait station to the next, stopping to take advantage of the handily placed refreshments. I never saw any evidence of rats around grain stores, Barley silage or feedlots when I worked in Alberta.

Rats in Canada -
Norway rats are unique because they must live with people or their structures. They cannot survive in natural areas and cannot overwinter in cultivated fields in Canada. Norway rats are not native to North America but were introduced to the east coast about 1775 and gradually spread westward over most of the continent. Norway rats spread westward as North America became settled, as farms became closer together and as cultivated land began to dominate the landscape.
Rats entered eastern Saskatchewan in the 1920s and extended their range to the northwest at about 24 km (15 mi) per year (Figure 1). Rats were first reported on the eastern border of Alberta in 1950, and would have continued to spread westward had it not been for a rat control program that halted their advance and continues to maintain an essentially rat-free province to date.

Alberta successfully operate a rat control zone in Eastern Alberta - to stop the invasion of rats from their Eastern neighbouring State of Saskatchewan - The control zone is 600km long and 29km wide - the people of Alberta are extremely fortunate not to have rats. This is not by chance but by design. For the past four decades, Alberta has had a program to keep rats out of the province. This publication describes the evolution, history and current status of the rat control program in Alberta, and discusses factors which contributed to its success -
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex3441#government
Winter in Alberta is characterized by several months of continuous snow cover and below-freezing temperatures. Overwinter infestations are limited to man-made structures; severe climate prevents colonies from overwintering in open fields where they would probably go undetected.
This is an amazing example of people power and what can be achieved if people get focused on controlling a pest

Originally Posted by Wirehunt

Mr Browning, time for a few lessons in pest control.
Rats when broadcast poisoned go into a breeding frenzy. They think the species is under threat and really go for it. When they are taken down slowly this doesn't happen.
If the numbers are kept really low even a super mast on steroids won't matter much as there isn't much stock to populate, BUT you have to keep at it.

Possums only have one young a year. If you can't control them by a consistent trapping system then give up and let someone else do the job because your not up to it.

Deer, well if it wasn't for all the issues created by poisons we would have a much bigger export trade, same goes for possum and rabbit.

Rabbits, doc Twizel hasn't used 1080 on them since 1996, they do however use pindone when they are breaking in a block after fencing it, currently they are spending 50 cents a hectare to maintain rabbits at a very low level. They are doing that via fence maintenance and shooting. The army base at Tekapo has no rabbit problems now, it's regularly night shot.

Boom or bust does NOT work for pest control ever.
Then we find out the ways 1080 is often misused; no monitoring which means no fucking idea on how much is required
Completely wrong times of year
Wrong amounts of prefeed (1 instead of 2 which is industry standard for a fucking reason
No monitoring of none target species
And my total favourite BECAUSE WE NEED TO DO IT OR WE LOSE THE MONEY What. The. Fuck? The fucking budget is more important than anything else.

Two weeks ago almost to the day there was a drop behind Luggate township by ospri. They did not consult the people of the town even though that's a water supply....... oh, and the public plus the townspeople had asked several times for.meeting etc. Those.filthy dirty stinking fucktards did it away and fuck what anyone said. You wonder why people are getting a bit hot under the collar.

Not entirely sure why it was directed at me, but partly agree with some of what you have to say at least.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Mr Browning, Mr Bing is referencing the Alberta Rat Line. I have approach DOC here - normal drill visit the Minister explain how it works etc - result zero interest from DOC.

The Rat Line is a wide area kept clear of vegetation with bait stations randomly scattered like land mines across it. Rats hate crossing open ground and will run from one bait station to the next, stopping to take advantage of the handily placed refreshments. I never saw any evidence of rats around grain stores, Barley silage or feedlots when I worked in Alberta.

I believe Bing was talking about a self resetting trap, and yes, Ive heard and read about the rat line in Canada and I see time out has post quite an educational write-up about it. Could that work here? Maybe, it would take a lot of time and man power to setup and maintain. I cant imagine the greenies would like a baron strip of land 20+ kms wide across the country though.

Sadly the govt mentality seems to be "employ 5 men and give them a job for 20 years" rather than employ 100 and have the job done in about 6 months. There just isnt enough people on the ground to do an effective job (apart from Doc Twizel on the rabbits it seems) and nothing they do will make a great deal of difference other than minimal control.