Yes sorry @Shearer. Wasn't meaning that location but remote places in general. Bad choice of wording.
No tracks. Places hardly anyone goes . . . ever. Yet they still dump the shit there.
Yes sorry @Shearer. Wasn't meaning that location but remote places in general. Bad choice of wording.
No tracks. Places hardly anyone goes . . . ever. Yet they still dump the shit there.
Yes that circuit is very popular....it would seem almost any of them that get off track end up in a search and rescue or recovery operation.....at huge cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shearer
Sent from my S60 using Tapatalk
Because our govt department charged with conservation of the estate wants to show all these tourists we have(hows that working out now?) a ecosystem choked by regrowth and devoid of any life other than plants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideshow
Or they could go for a balanced ecosystem with browsers included as per the pre human environment our bush has evolved to accommodate and work with.
Sent from my S60 using Tapatalk
If you do half a valley reinvasion in the area you have poisoned will be very very quick. Google ship rats breeding 3 litters per year averaging 5 to 8 young a litter.Quote:
Originally Posted by deer243
Have you tried telling a rat or a stoat that it has to live in a "balanced environment" with mohua or kakariki ?Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
Have you ever been into native bush never 1080d and heard the beautiful dawn chourus? Slogged up onto the tops and had the kea pulling the tape from your barrel while you glassed distant Deer or Chamois or Thar? And then been back into those areas that had been in a balance of "pests" and natives and seen the results not just once but over years.Quote:
Originally Posted by sore head stoat
I have.
I am not amused.
Moa were major herbivore forest browsers but wiped out for human food and ultimately their bones ground up for fertilizer.
Stoats and weasels and cats are not herbivores and do not take 1080 cereal baits. The by kill of those is minor through secondary poisoning.
Rats are omnivores and can be effectively controlked by bait stations and traps, as can the mustelids and cats. Stoats get sore (actually flattened) heads and no by kill of birds. DoC and Ospri have created a myth in order to sustain their respective sick bureacratic funding and mismanage our wild game assets AND at the expense of farmer and taxpayer levies.
The science does not agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
Mohua were one of the most prolific birds in our beech forests... Read the threats and conservation, also read where they are making a comeback in areas where effective rat and stoat control is taking place. 1080 is effective rat and stoat control.
Yellowhead | New Zealand Birds Online
Here is something from many many years ago where you can see the decline long before the use of 1080. Read what was there..and now read the reason for the decline.
http://docs.niwa.co.nz/library/public/OPNZDOCNM81.pdf
The "science" will say whatever the money wants it to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by sore head stoat
The other link is too much to look at on my phone....but I will look at it.
So if Poison the whole valley, the ones from the others side will re colonise ...so if we do both valleys then the ones from the next range will recolonise ...so if we do the whole country the surviours will recolonise ...seems to me like we have no end game! Except then fact that 50% of tagged kea got wiped out in the last 1080 campaign ...so rats survive and breed whilst kea die ...hmmm
Regardless. Trapping targeted spp is far more ecologically responsible. Aerial broadcast of a "kill all" poison is nothing other than grossly irresponsible abuse of the environment. Sustained trapping will do the job far better than use of sustained repetative indiscriminate poisoning AND with large socio economic benifits to communities.
Secondary poisoning of mustelids being minor ,i call that bullshit, this report was done in 2009 and poisoning operations are getting more effective all the time, from the days when they first "plastered" the countryside with massive doses to gps systems delivering smaller doses and less poison per bait.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody
The science of how 1080 works
I dont know how much predator trapping you do but i am involved with SEVERAL predator trapping groups and i can assure you you are talking absolute bollocks when it comes to running traps in South Island beech forest, not just in but particularly in mast years.. Getting the labour to clear the traps is the major problem.
Bait stations ? what sort of bait are you advocating ?
I saw this the other day re your science, money...Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
Even on Gilligans Island they asked advice from the professor and not the millionaire... i will go with the science everytime.
Can i just qualify my point of view.. I am no apologist for DOCs poisoning programme, I firmly believe they dont get it right all the time and have had first hand experience of such more than once.
Is Gilligans island the doc textbook then? There had been a decades long very successfultrapping operation in the Nth Urewera where 1080 was not used. It was embarressing to DoC who ultimately shut it down.
As far as labour is concerned; pay good money in secured jobs and problem solved, even in very rugged terrain. Go read Joff Thompsons books for a starter. Too many blind pussies with obsessed biased notions and extremist green aims in DoC heirarchy. Get rid of them and replace with MEN and WOMEN with a trapping mindset, fully funded long term and then witness a successful change for the better. Amongst other things it will create productive careers instead of propaganda tv clips.
No rats die with 1080 as you know... Yes 50% of the tagged kea died from 1080 and that is a big embarrassing loss . I think as i have said previously DOC dont get it right all the time. There is plenty of information though that would suggest that the remaining kea will breed succesfully [they will bloody need to] to make up the losses. To do nothing is to ensure the failure of the kea population. You can see in the link from 2009 to 2014 ONLY 2% of nests in areas without predator control were successful, those figures will ensure the demise of the kea population !Quote:
Originally Posted by stingray
https://www.doc.govt.nz/our-work/tia...g-results/kea/
Gilligan Island the text book... good comeback :thumbsup: lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Woody
Better to ask the scientist or the guys on the forum ??? Nah i will stick with the science. when a rat can live in 50sqm in the bush trapping just aint going to happen , way to expensive , way to ineffective and mice will drive you nuts stealing baits , tripping traps etc
Still seems the odd chappy cant see through the fog,ah well maybe they've passed the point of no return just like DOC.
The unfortunate thing with that linked study is that there is no science. Kea nest high, high above the range of cats and rats and stoats. There is no prey up in the rocks to attract predators, so the Kea nest unmolested until poisoned. I am sure that a bush area with only rock outcrops for nesting can be found for the purpose of justifying predation numbers, to that end the 'study' doesn't say where the nests where that were monitored but I bet they weren't way above the bushline.Quote:
Originally Posted by sore head stoat
No it's like telling a Kea not to eat that dead poisoned carcass! I'm not going to pretend to know the science of any of it but I do know right from wrong like dont let kids play with Tide pods!! I know Poison kills in high doses but whats it do in lower doses over years of exposure, science will do studys over decades of research and find it's effects but like I've heard the DOC doesn't always get it right, so I'm just saying it's not worth the risk move on to plan B.Quote:
Originally Posted by sore head stoat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moa Hunter
Wrong. See distribution and habitat, second paragraph where kea nest.
Kea | New Zealand Birds Online
Tell rock wren that stoats dont eat there nests. Now they live above the bushline and nest above the bush line.
Rock wren | New Zealand Birds Online
I know a guy that traps up in Arthurs Pass and he was telling me a few months ago the last stoat he caught was right in the sub alpine scrub. It is also thought that invasion of valleys can occur when stoats come right over the tops not only up the valley floors.
I have seen a stoat crossing the St Arnaud range well up in the tussock above the bush line (over 1500m) so they do leave the bush. Like most animals they will go wherever the food source is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moa Hunter
Regardless of ones opinion on 1080 drops, I think it is fair to say that DOC's communication of such matters is atrocious.
There is no way that any of us should be finding things like this out on facebook. I am not a facebook user so without @veitnamcam text or @deer243 posting here i would still be unaware of it. (Thanks for that guys, keep it up [emoji6])
Considering I currently hold a possum trapping permit for parts of the area and a hunting permit both issued by DOC & I ticked the box asking to be emailed alerts for "temporary closures, culling operations or other alerts". Where was my email informing me of this?
After all not all of us want to chain ourselves to trees or sit atop a mountain to stop such things. As effected parties I think it would be decent of them to inform us.
As an aside....as mentioned by @Shearer above this area is heavily used by tourists. I stayed in the Sabine hut the night after lockdown with my son & we had the whole hut to ourselves. I had a look threw the hut book and out of the 50 entry's prior to lockdown 7 were from NZers
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...e99971bf7c.jpg
So while our country remains closed there may never be a better time to visit the likes of blue lake, Te Araroa trail, able tasman etc.
Find the places in your region that the tourists usually overrun and get amongst it [emoji106]
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Yep DOC STANDS Door Open Closed:O_O:Quote:
Originally Posted by doinit
I was planning a trip back down soon to go to the blue lake for a look and hunt in that area, not now. When i was down there this year i didn't realize blue lake was in the same area, a i went to misery hut instead if i had know where blue lake was i would have gone there(maybe) really enjoyed my time down there and was looking forward to coming back down.
They want to think about dropping wasp bait at the same time.
12 months notice would be good i know we would have shoot a few more animals.
Not wrong, just the link doesn't list all the places they nest or explain how the cock bird guards the nest from predators. Annual mortality 36.8 % in the days prior to 1080. All the Kea on our farm when at Murchison were poisoned with 1080 - a group of about 12 birds that had been stable at that number for 20 years. There was one Kea sighted when I visited the old farm in 2019 and that is 15 years after the poison drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by sore head stoat
My Uncle shot and trapped hundreds of Kea in the upper Waimakariri in the 1960's with call and decoy birds for the bounty. Flocks of 20 - 30 were common and self sustaining despite culling. The official figures on Kea beaks (bounty) are local council figures but don't include private bounties paid. So 1080 kills a lot of bigger birds, Kea, Pigeons, Moreporks. Many pellets get hung up in trees where birds eat them without ground foraging.
The forest has improved remarkably with possums gone, but is silent.
Ask Dick Deaker about the Kea populations in Fiordland, comparing poisoned to un-poisoned valleys. It is a sad story
Nope ... read it again , quote "KEA NEST MAINLY WITHIN NATIVE FOREST" You said they are out of the range of cats rats and stoats... that is just plainly incorrect..
Maybe you should tell Mr and Mrs Kea that stoats and possums have not killed their chick ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgJjgHfwxwM
listen to the last sentence where he calls kea "birds of the forest"
Quote:
Originally Posted by sore head stoat
I confess I was shocked to see the possum predation. It cannot have been wide spread though as often there are good Kea populations alongside high possum numbers.
By 'range' I use the term to mean the area over which they search for food. If there is no food source up high above the bush why go there ? It doesn't make sense for a stoat or cat to check out the high rocky ground on the off chance that a Kea nest might be occasionally found. I will say though that two weeks ago I was surprised to have a stoat run up to me in the bush right at the upper bushline in the Harper Avoca.
So applying a bit of thought, we know that the annual mortality due to predation, (including stoats) shooting and natural causes was 36.8% pre 1080, that birds breed after three years old have several chicks in a clutch and can have two clutches a year as well as having a very long breeding life. Where are they and why do they not breed back after 1080 ?
Sore head stoat please do ph Dick Deaker.
They do and often, having been in Nelson SAR before moving south I can confirm rescues happen in there all the time, not all require SAR as often is just a helo pickup from the paraffin pigeon (air ambulance)Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
https://envirowatchrangitikei.wordpr...bntNlWUZincAwA
I’m not a fan of this particularly the way they use it but also a real eye opener is what is brought up at the end , for deer recovery the stand down period is 3 years where brodifacoum has been used , mean while farming practices continue even if the stuff has been used directly on the boundary fence or even on private land in bait stations with stock around , how is that possible.
The 1080 gravy chain is huge,a thriving industry :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Boaraxa
And guess what? the powers that drive it along don't give a flying f*** about what harm is being done to good ol NZ,
private stock deaths,,who gives a toss,contaminated waterways,who gives a toss, bla'bla'bla.
It has been way out of control for a very long time.
Well that's my rant over,like many I've seen enough to do me for the rest of my days lol.
Yes but the point is all those farms with brodifacoum around or on should not be supplying stock or any other animal products for human consumption within 2ks of any poison for 3 years .
Yes that is correct but who's doing anything about it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Boaraxa
You know what happens when someone kicks up a stink in regards to poison.
Boaraxa there is just so much bad going on behind the scenes in regards to poison,they do their best ti keep it quiet.
They do not care,,end of story.
Would it not be better to use those without jobs now to trap the rats and not use that shit in our national parks . Havent doc been given shit loads in the budget so why not employ people
Because DoC policy is total extermination of any non native plant bird fish animal any non NZ native organism from national parks. They have made attempts in the padt to change the status of RHA's to Forest Parks with similar extrmination pilicies as apply to national parks as well. They proposed a few years ago to apply rotenone poison to waterways rising in national parks in order to exterminate trout and salmon. Changed their bloody minded plan when when it was pointed out to them that water actually flows downhill and out of national park bounaries into places like the Taupo fishery. They are host to people whose aim is to revert NZ to pre 1840 (treaty date) state. Reasoning and drivers? I leave to your deductive senses.
I would think it should be a huge concern to the likes of MPI , 3k from the drop zone , imagine brodifacoum showing up in export meatQuote:
Originally Posted by doinit
It should be a huge concern to all in Government not just MPI..Quote:
Originally Posted by Boaraxa
Like I said things are kept quiet.
I’ve been down this road before, fed farmers are involved. something along the lines of they want what’s best for the farmer and stuff everyone else I.e game meat.
What gets me is, I can’t sell a deer for 3 years from within 2k of broady. In case a pellet fell out of bait station but, a farmer can sell all the stock in the same paddock as the bait station with no issues.... go figure
We made enquiries as to whether meat processors regularly tested for poison contamination. A. No ; unless specifically warned of likelyhood of stock being contaminated. = sfa testing.
On the feral stuff they test regularly, can’t comment on the farm stuff tho