Only on the inside :sick:
I have seen a few ducks with it. fracking nasty.
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Seen lakes full of ducks with it in Aussie. All unable to hold their head up drowning in the pond :(
botox is a minor surgical procedure involving the localised injection of minute doses of the botulism toxin around mouth and eyes to temporarily paralyse minute facial mucles.repeats usually required every 3/12
hence the apparent smoothing out of wrinkles etc albeit temporarily.
Note this is a controlled dose of the toxin-should you of course have a gutsful of crook shellfish_mussels are numero uno, that is enough toxin on board to hibernate a very large PMT stricken grizzly bear in perpetuity
for you my human friend usually an appointment on the undertakers embalming table where the words "now stay still this wont hurt too much" are entirely superfluous as you are well in transit to the other side! judging by a brief eyeball mk1 scan of the latest MSM Stuff articles it would appearmy previous sentiments could be viable-it may be a variation of nast bastardus botuli ,but cuzzies over the water rquired to confirm kiwi suspicions.
regardless me thinks tis a one off and a lot of the present hysteria is overeacting and unwarranted.
I didnt know there was any botulism antitoxin?
A while back i was bottling some Kahawai and was shit scared of poisoning my family so did extensive googling on the subject.
Everything I came up with on botulism was that there is pretty much no cure?
Makes sense. If it was the pork it cannot be botulism. Botulinum toxin does not work that fast. Not sure what ingesting megadoses of it would do though, perhaps faster acting??? Don't know. Still, on the face of it, botulism does not fit the most obvious evidence and it's striking how the victims all succumbed straight after that pork meal (if it was from an earlier ingested substance, you might expect a bit more "spread" in the timing of their respective collapses).
One vet has a very striking contribution regarding the cause, which would fit with the pig meat. Pig hunters with dogs beware:
"Vet Jenni Peterson said dogs suffer from an illness commonly known as "Go Slow" when they eat wild pork.
Ms Peterson said within minutes they collapse and get the shakes.
She said it was worrisome very little was known about the toxin, and there had been no investigation into whether humans can also suffer."
From: https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/natio...ting-wild-pork
Something smells seriously fishy, makes you wonder if the conspiracy theories might be true:
How long do these tests take? Wouldn't they be urgent given the families critical health? Why are they only testing for botulism?Quote:
Health authorities were yet to confirm botulism was responsible for their illness, but it's the only thing they're testing for and family members are responding to antitoxins for botulism.
Samples had been sent to a lab in Queensland, Australia, but there was no timeframe on when they were due back, Varghese said.
"At this stage there are no test results showing that it is botulism, so what do they do when you can't pinpoint what it is and what is happening?
They were refused ACC too I read
The older woman still ill
I was just talking to a mate about this issue. The media has moved on which makes everyone happy, except those who hunt and eat our quarry. This matter needs to be addressed properly in order that appropriate action can be taken and safeguards put in place.
As everyone has acknowledged this doesn't feel right in terms of speed of effect and the symptoms if we are to believe the media. It may have nothing at all to do with hunting for all we know and these poor folk have corned into contact with another illicit subsrance and the pig taking the blame.
Could be related to the "toxic sea slugs" that killed the dogs on Auckland's beaches and dead fish floating on the Firth of Thames a few years ago. The findings there never came into the public arena.
One other thought that I had on this issue was what sauce did they use on the pork? Home made tomato sauce (gud old watties) some badly fermentented citrus chutney...
I thought the previously cooked rice, subsequently reheated was the suspect?
The anti 1080 people have well and truly clouded this situation with conspiracy theories. But the symptoms match botulism and they are responding to botulism anti-toxins. So its botulism.
ACC does not cover cases like this, involving bacteria. The people who suffered from the bad water up North were not covered by ACC either.
How they got it would be interesting to know, bad meat handling (botulism is a bacteria that lives in the soil) or whatever. But it is rare in NZ, last case was in 1983. So I wouldn't worry too much.
Last case I remember being told about was a chap who fired up his dinner on a frying pan that hadn't been washed in 10 days. Succumbed to severe death shortly thereafter. Like within half an hour.
So botulism can work very quickly.
I worry more about tainted cutlery and plates in a hut, than about the meat off a freshly killed wild pig or deer.
About the most you can take from this case so far, is that curry will not kill botulism.
Point of order Carlsen! How does a severe death differ from say a mild death? I am taking the piss but I really had never considered that there were differing degrees of death until I read your post.
I was always told "death can be fatal, if taken seriously "
I suppose there are fast and relatively painless deaths i.e. bullet to the head, quick and painful going through a combine harvester, long and drawn out with a lot of pain like cancer in your weanie,
take your pick there are some nasty ways to checkout, food poisoning is one of the most unpleasant ways to go
@Taff
No, if taken internally.
How to die from botulism:
Catch a fish, leave it on the ground and get soil into the gills. - still safe to eat
Boil it too short time, not killing off the anaerobic (hardy) spores. - still safe to eat
Pickle it, but with insufficient sugar / vinegar in and leave the airtight container aside for a few weeks. - getting there boys!
Eat it. - Die
No it is not botulism until such time as the specimen results are received from Australia that provide incontrovertible proof.this theory of it looks like a duck ,quacks like a duck flys like a duck 'is not 100%applicable and i dont give a rats arse who disagrees.we see this all the bloody time with mental illness -people who diagnose cause they think the symptoms fit a specific type .WRONG.this sort of shit is rampant these days due to the internet and the ability to self diagnose often due to quack sites.
+1 Its not confirmed it is botullism and some experts think its not as some of the symptoms dont match (ie going into a coma so quick). Carlsen is jumping the gun and is a fool to say IT IS botulism when all hes going on are some experts that are saying it is when in actual fact no results have confirmed anything and until that time it MAYBE botulism end of
The symptoms don't seem to match food poisoning botulism though?
FWIW 1080 poisoning symptoms seem different too, however some rodenticides do list coma's as a symptom of poisoning so who knows.Quote:
Signs and symptoms of foodborne botulism typically begin between 12 and 36 hours after the toxin gets into your body. But, the start of symptoms can range from a few hours to several days, depending on the amount of toxin ingested. Signs and symptoms of foodborne botulism include:
Difficulty swallowing or speaking
Dry mouth
Facial weakness on both sides of the face
Blurred or double vision
Drooping eyelids
Trouble breathing
Nausea, vomiting and abdominal cramps
Paralysis
As for responding to botulism treatments you're a smart guy you know about cause and effect relationships (or not). These people are most likely on IV fluids, maybe oxygen (useful for cyanide poisoning) it could be there system is flushing whatever they have out from that. Doctors are assuming its the antitoxins that are working. Until that lab report comes back they are just assuming/guessing.
Don't you find it odd the lab report is taking so long - it's almost a month now?
and this could backfire on hunters, if it did turn out to be secondary poisoning say from feratox then it may lead to tighter restrictions on meat recovery and where people can hunt.
From the outset, the family spokesman indicated the test would be carried out in Australia, and results would take a month. I do not believe for one second that the cause is 1080, but rather a form of food poisoning. I contacted police the day after the initial news and suggested they investigate contents of the home and kitchen where the meal was prepared. They did not seem too interested. Whether the DHB has investigated the home or not I don't know.
Well, a fool I may be. But considering no one on here is a goddamn doctor, I will go with the opinion of people who are for the time being, until I get my own PHD sorted out.
And you just have to listen to some of these anti-1080 people sometimes and you realise that you really wouldnt want to be roped to them if you were mountain climbing.
If you put your faith entirely in doctors then you've got some hard times in your future. Doctors are people just like the rest of us, they are open to mistakes and other influences. You also seem to be hung up on the anti-1080 thing, I and others have noted it doesn't sound like 1080.
It doesn't take a PHD to look at the symptoms and processes that happen with botulism toxin. It takes time to kick in, if those people ingested it from a meal it would have to have been one from a day or so earlier. If that were the case then you would expect the symptoms for each adult to kick in over a more diverse period of time. In this case the 3 adults came down ill simultaneously - which would indicate it came from that recent meal.
Here's a tip from an old fella, question doctors. It may save your life one day. I just had a work colleague diagnosed with an ailment by NZ doctors (cancer related), their option was surgery - nothing else. She hold dual citizenship, so she went back to her original country and the doctors there told here no it was easily dealt with with localized radiation treatment. She got 3 different opinions. She's back in NZ now all cleared up.
When a doctor says "we're only checking for botulism" that tells me they've already made up their mind. They have made an assumption, not a diagnosis.
The effects on the victims did not match my understanding of poisoning symptoms of any poison commonly used in the bush. Nor have I ever heard of botulism being caused to a pig hunter in NZ. There was more than one hunter according to the news, yet no one outside that particular home or meal reported any effects. I doubt the entire pig was consumed, and the pig must have been alive when shot, so if any artificial poison was present in the pig, the meal consumers would have a much lesser portion than what may have been contained in the entire pig body when the pig was alive.
The assumption that the pig itself caused the illness does'nt ring true to me.
Maybe. But in this "pig" case internet jockeys are attempting to make a diagnosis with incomplete, subjective or imagined information. The Dr's are making it with all of the information to hand and on the back of specialised medical diagnostic training, at least four years of intense studies and the considered opinions of colleagues and specialists. I know who I would put my faith in.
Someone ring Dr House & that hot sidekick chick, they will sort it.
if youre taking a pot at me carlsen -i dont give a fat rats arse.my credentials are well known on this forum and i tell it how i sees it .
as started Is it not curious no one else was poisoned by eating this particular pig IIRC 3hunters actually secured the bloody thing.
secondly Isnt it curious that this by all accounts seems a one off .given the extreme popularity of pig hunting as a national pastime,I'd have expected to hear more reports of apparent botulism in pig hunters or dogs over the years .dunno about you but myaself im an avid reader and conversationalist and all the info ive gained on pig hunting has never mentioned botulism.ive read of cases where porcine TBwas suspected so carcasses were discarde(often characteriased by nodules of tumours attached to vital organs.
BTW beofre I go -to all you cynics and doubters re doctors -if you dont like medicos ,try it out for yourselves -walk a mile in our shoes.
believe me not a day goes past when i dont smile at at least one knowall pain in the arse,or stand there mute as a some knowall demanding petulant wee arsehole gives me an illfounded or unwarranted spray.some of you would have no bloody idea the filthy abuse thats hurled at us or the actual physical violence we suffer .
no we dont reply with taser or pepperspray ,nor sidearm ,though its fucking tempting!
wht do you think this country has a shortage of Drs and nurses.
Nuff fucking said:pissed off:
Botulism or other bacteria could have easily been introduced between him killing and them eating the pig. Weather it was bad preparation, rotten filth on cooking utensils or bad curry paste there are many possibilities. Food science 101, food can kill you.
My 2C on this.......
Botulism has an incubation period greater than what it took "whatever" to overcome the family.
WHO | Botulism
"Symptoms of foodborne botulism
Botulinum toxins are neurotoxic and therefore affect the nervous system. Foodborne botulism is characterized by descending, flaccid paralysis that can cause respiratory failure. Early symptoms include marked fatigue, weakness and vertigo, usually followed by blurred vision, dry mouth and difficulty in swallowing and speaking. Vomiting, diarrhoea, constipation and abdominal swelling may also occur. The disease can progress to weakness in the neck and arms, after which the respiratory muscles and muscles of the lower body are affected. There is no fever and no loss of consciousness.
The symptoms are not caused by the bacterium itself, but by the toxin produced by the bacterium. Symptoms usually appear within 12 to 36 hours (within a minimum and maximum range of 4 hours to 8 days) after exposure. Incidence of botulism is low, but the mortality rate is high if prompt diagnosis and appropriate, immediate treatment (early administration of antitoxin and intensive respiratory care) are not given. The disease can be fatal in 5 to 10% of cases."
Family were overcome within 15mins of consuming the meat and lost consciousness very quickly. Botulism doesn't ring true, and even the WHO agrees it is unlikely to be botulism.
And with the DHB refusing to release the toxicity report that was requested under the OIA, it looks more like someone doesn't want the truth to come out.
If it was a poison, then whoever was responsible could face criminal charges.
My sons a Doctor, reading the bullshit here on not trusting a doctor, I hope when you really get ill you don't scurry off to some poor Doc that's never met you before and has no history on you for treatment??
Go to your naturopath, or maybe post on here for advice or just curl up and die!!:O_O:
It's not about not trusting a doctor, it's about questioning and pushing for accurate diagnosis and accurate treatment. As for bullshit I almost died because I didn't push/question a doctor once (infected gall bladder, where overseas they remove it - but in NZ they give it a few weeks to see what happens... say hello to gangrene!). Since then I have started questioning doctors when I don't think they are acting appropriately (example our 3rd kid was diagnosed with severe G6PD deficiency , doctor had no inclination to test the other 2 until I asked for it).
As you get older you realize people of all trades are not perfect, and you need to take some responsibility for your health.
Or maybe your son is absolutely perfect and makes no mistakes?
I guess being around doctors you appreciate how caring they are and what they need to learn on an ongoing basis, so I think you need a good relationship with your doctor and don't be scared to ask for a second opinion. A good doctor should ask his fellow practitioners for that if he's unsure. Much like you I had a bad experience with a doctor which was life threatening. I took the opportunity to find another and for the passed 20 years, yep I'm getting older, Ive enjoyed excellent health care with a great doctor. Not trusting them, ask my sister in law today as she starts a battle with cancer, once again a good doctor and the healthcare system will see her through!
It is a fair idea to question doctors. Asking questions does not mean that you think they are wrong. It is smart to question them. When the doctor has the correct diagnosis, the answers you will get will give you more information about what is happening to your body and what to expect, what to look out for and when you should return if something that is unexpected occurs. And if the questions raise information that affects the accuracy of the diagnosis, such as unnoticed symptoms or symptoms the patient has dismissed as "normal" the Doctor is then able to gather more information.
Doctors can get it wrong sometimes. I would point out that some of this is because the patient may have left out vital clues for diagnosis as they were unaware of the importance of a minor symptom or may not have realised something was a symptom. And occasionally Doctors prove they were human too. At the end of the day, questions about what is happening will not harm a correct diagnosis and will provide you with confirmation and information, and these same qustions can clarify why the doctor is suspecting that diagnosis, and may be ale to verify or correct any diagnosis they have.
It is your health, and you should want to know as much about it as you can.