Thread: Time to re-introduce a paying for deer/goat tail scheme?

Just thinking about the National Goat hunting competition and was wondering why doc don't pay per tail of animals.

"It's not known how many wild goats there are but DOC believes there are several hundred thousand roaming across 15% of New Zealand."
"DOC spent more than $5 million last year culling goats, but if numbers aren't controlled their population can double every two years."
https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/08/01/f...ff-from-today/
Seems like alot of money spent culling for not much return. Say 25-50k goats killed per year by cullers thats $100-200 a goat.

The cullers back in the day got paid per tail, starting with department of internal affairs then Forest Service. Was this available for the public too?

I cost of ammo and fuel is expensive now days and when people shoot 10-50 goats it sure does add up. So getting a few bucks back per tail would be a bonus.
I think it will increase the amount shot by the public.
Why don't they pay per animal anymore?

Originally Posted by Nugget connaisseur

Just thinking about the National Goat hunting competition and was wondering why doc don't pay per tail of animals.

"It's not known how many wild goats there are but DOC believes there are several hundred thousand roaming across 15% of New Zealand."
"DOC spent more than $5 million last year culling goats, but if numbers aren't controlled their population can double every two years."
https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/08/01/f...ff-from-today/
Seems like alot of money spent culling for not much return. Say 25-50k goats killed per year by cullers thats $100-200 a goat.

The cullers back in the day got paid per tail, starting with department of internal affairs then Forest Service. Was this available for the public too?

I cost of ammo and fuel is expensive now days and when people shoot 10-50 goats it sure does add up. So getting a few bucks back per tail would be a bonus.
I think it will increase the amount shot by the public.
Why don't they pay per animal anymore?

sorry but as an ex DOC Manager of goat control - bountys tail cash etc complete waste of tax payers money - why- where did the goats come from - DOC money is targeted to areas that most need it - why pay for a goat that could have been shot on private land -the old cullers were not paid per tail - they were given a block and had a tally to shoot to get their contract payment - the penalty for going outside the block was a discussion with the field Officer which generally entailed being told where the track out was - some will refer to it as the old DCM - so the money was targeted to a specific area - when I was in NZFS we were always on a straight wage but again we were not allowed to hunt outside of our block - and now its contract to cover a specific area- the contract hunter carrys a GPS and he is paid out on having covered the allocated block - people need to get their head around the simple fact that to just shoot goats deer or possums that they are achieving something - they may well not be - reproduction may be higher in the area than whats shot - just shooting 4-5 goats in an area with high numbers achieves nothing really so why should the tax payer pay for them ( well fun for the hunter ) - better to hit an area badly needing control for bio-diversity reasons and once numbers are low keep them low with regular maintenance control - thats basically what happens now targeted money

yes and no Barry.....its often been said the only good.....(insert species name here) ...is a dead .....
you want to reduce the OVERALL population ,what does it matter where it comes from if indeed you are SERIOUS about reducing the overall population.
the guy that can kill 300 possums a night has a lot of possums..the guy that can get 4-5 probably works harder to get them...either way its 305 dead possums that wont be making more little possums.
same for feral cats/rats/ferrets (swamp comp doesnt ask,require where they came from)
the current situation with contractors ,can at times,be a right joke...spray wilding pines in an area and DONT go back 3-4 months later and hit the ones they missed..so they keep spreading.its the old story of deminishing returns..easy to get the easy ones,take the cream off..but really hard to whack the last few of any population..so if anyone is still having a go..why ever not give them ssomething as reward for doing so
take that 440 wallabies the boys whacked over....if there was say $1 per set of ears...it would be worth walking past as many as were handy and taking a scalp...petrol/diesel money or replacement rounds..no one will get rich at that sort of level but at $5 a set it starts to look really attractive
again the only good ..... is a dead ....

and your argument that only shooting 4 isnt doing much good.....flipped on head,dont bother shooting 4 at all and see how much faster population explodes,if your sliding down the hill and making 3 steps forward and 4 steps back,your still dropping slower than if you stand still.

Surely any dead goat/wallaby/pest is better than a live one. They can't breed once their dead.

I agree that there should be a bounty for them, and it should be fair otherwise people aren't going to bother.

My boys would be into that for sure.

Bounties have never worked.

a bounty on its own might not..but it sure as hell wont hurt or be worse than current fiasco. until access is improved there will always be the nursery areas to repopulate well controlled areas..there are STILL farmers who allow zero control on thier land and the neighbours are continually having to knock numbers back down as they cross boundary.

Under a bounty system a pest suddenly becomes a resource. If you have a handy supply of an animal that is worth money you are probably going to protect them.

I think it's a great idea, but think DOC would balk at paying out that sort of money, especially in today's financial climate.

Originally Posted by Backcountry Bob

Under a bounty system a pest suddenly becomes a resource. If you have a handy supply of an animal that is worth money you are probably going to protect them.

yip but if its pocket money only....maybe not so much..and thats no different to the old biddy who 'likes to see them around"

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

yes and no Barry.....its often been said the only good.....(insert species name here) ...is a dead .....
you want to reduce the OVERALL population ,what does it matter where it comes from if indeed you are SERIOUS about reducing the overall population.
the guy that can kill 300 possums a night has a lot of possums..the guy that can get 4-5 probably works harder to get them...either way its 305 dead possums that wont be making more little possums.
same for feral cats/rats/ferrets (swamp comp doesnt ask,require where they came from)
the current situation with contractors ,can at times,be a right joke...spray wilding pines in an area and DONT go back 3-4 months later and hit the ones they missed..so they keep spreading.its the old story of deminishing returns..easy to get the easy ones,take the cream off..but really hard to whack the last few of any population..so if anyone is still having a go..why ever not give them ssomething as reward for doing so
take that 440 wallabies the boys whacked over....if there was say $1 per set of ears...it would be worth walking past as many as were handy and taking a scalp...petrol/diesel money or replacement rounds..no one will get rich at that sort of level but at $5 a set it starts to look really attractive
again the only good ..... is a dead ....

and your argument that only shooting 4 isnt doing much good.....flipped on head,dont bother shooting 4 at all and see how much faster population explodes,if your sliding down the hill and making 3 steps forward and 4 steps back,your still dropping slower than if you stand still.

This idea is nothing short of the same stupid thinking that has got us into this mess . Pissing into the wind feels good only until it gets blown back onto yourself . Unless you think strategically nothing will be achieved .
I know of a Forestry company that initially let anyone who wanted to , go into their forests and shoot goats and deer (great eh) except it turned into an abject failure. Idiots went in and effectively shot sod all or just educated them causing a bigger problem . So then they only allowed certain people in and initially they shot in the thousands each per year( private not pest controllers) , now the numbers are right down to the point that some forests are virtually goat free , with much lower deer numbers ( although the trees are at a point where they do not cause so much of a problem).
Unless you remove the breeding base their is no relief and merely killing from here to Timbuktu is a recipe for spreading the problem at the expense of a feel good cock-up.

Hence asking why they don't sometimes things sound like a good idea as not all the reasons are known.

Obviously the over all reduction is less of a priority than the targeted areas u mentioned is key driver in their policy.

There were a combination of wages and a tail bounty system under the DIA. Maybe wrongly assumed / told this carried on with NZFS. Obviously commercial recovery removed alot of need for cullers.

Another negative i can see is often the cost internally to manage the program could be far greater than the tail bounty paid.

And im well aware with culling / pest control its very easy to thin large numbers but to remove the last 10% gets exponentially more expensive. A doc block i started hunting 6years ago was regularly shooting 50+ a day trip. Now its in the 10s and 20s with overall numbers down and often smaller groups. Not sure if it gets targeted by cullers, if so its not regularly and i am starting to see sighs of more people hunting there.

And often hunters are our own worst enemy. Wasnt shooting enough tahr and doc said soon they will have to do culling. When they finally do do it. Everyone is up in arms. Yet the same people will go into the hills for few days or more only taking a big bull.

Even if they are paying for animals shot that will barely make a dent in the numbers the cost per animal overall will be far more efficient. Overall it could be good.
Md makes a good point at a dollar a pop is it worth it. But at 5 it be good.

Do you know the story of bounty for cobra skins in British India? If you do, then you will know why DOC would `nt pay you or any recreational hunters, Long time ago in Otago I think, govt. putted on the same bounty and rewards for controlling the uncontrolled rabbits population but there are always "smart" people and they started to raise rabbits.
Btw, doing pest control maybe a good business since NZ has some level of "bureaucracy", and by doing this you can have P endorsement. which means I can have M1 carbine, M1 grand, semi auto. We all heard a lots of these buzzwords: sustainability, greener, do it for kiwis, kiwi owned and operate....etc. So, 300k establishment to gain access of millions govt funding and ongoing subsidies, ha. But, only few people who has the knowledge and experience, and entrepreneurial head can put it together.

Im not suggesting for one second to NOT continue the strategic control....or targeting areas that are of concern.... but whacking them on head anywhere still results in dead pests....
of have the NZDA got it wrong,completely criminally wrong with this goat thing??? and the swamp comp with mustilids???
the wallabies got to this level they are at now because access was denied and the control was let up,the few left around allowed to breed up and spread out. I have to justify the $ spent on fuel to travel 50-100kms to go shoot a few for fun...and I do shoot a fair few each year,but no where near as many as I did when had access to private land and time on my hands.....I can spend the same $$ and go elsewhere and chase pork or venison...now if I could get that $$ back from wallabies...well I could/would chase them more,and I go into places a lot of others wont/dont and target them inside the bush as well as in the open. funny thing with wallabies..we shot much much bigger animals at night..plenty of small ones during the daytime but the bigger mature animals somehow hid from dogs untill wee small hours. Ive heard argument to not let fellas come and shoot as we have regular fellas who come and get lots/use thermal gear blah blah blah..yeah as much as dont like it I can acept that. outright shutting up an area however is wrong and shouldnt be allowed,its causing populations to expand.

As an example of stupid thinking is the Takahe & Kakapo preservation debacle where they were found in Fiordland and Stewart island . Maybe they where their because they had lost their prime areas and they should have been somewhere else ?. So only in recent times are they being moved to better more conducive areas .
So to think strategically some areas must be left to their own devices and those which are conducive to a good recovery/re-population of whatever ? are worth fighting for ?. Not some haphazard madman's plan of Utopia .

Originally Posted by Tahr

Bounties have never worked.

Government of nz seem to pay a bounty to have kids in NZ, The more you have the bigger the bounty. Its seems to work