Thread: WorkSafe: hunting on farmland

Originally Posted by Tahr

Visitors and events on farms – Safer Farms

You mentioned FarmSafe Ryan. I was the external consultant to ACC on FarmSafe's design and development. I worked alongside a man named John Wallaart who led the ACC team. It was a great work period of my life, and I'm proud of what we created. If you live to be 67 you can pack a fair bit into a working life

@Tahr That's a name from the past, Johns a good guy, I did his flying training back in the day.

Originally Posted by outdoorlad

@Tahr That's a name from the past, Johns a good guy, I did his flying training back in the day.

Yeah, a nice man. I still see him from time to time. He recently completed a PhD in H&S. I think the research was into respiratory devices.
Whenever we flew together with Air NZ he was plotting courses and mucking around with his techo watch for the whole flight.

The work safe people I spoke to said it's not work so they don't care. There's lots of bs going around about work safe, plenty of it is company policy going over board protecting themselves I was told.

I think you are correct Tahr it's the fear of prosecution that's the prob, the fear of the ugh known, as a great pilot once uttered. That is my fear, a guys dies in my employ and I lose everything and go to goal, it's unfair and draconian for sure. I have no chance, I pray it doesn't happen, even with my H&S policy in place. That's the killer, why would anyone open themselves up to the risks by owning a small business. The cost of compliance is also a deterrent, but there's money in it, that's the big flaw in the system.

Originally Posted by Maca49

I think you are correct Tahr it's the fear of prosecution that's the prob, the fear of the ugh known, as a great pilot once uttered. That is my fear, a guys dies in my employ and I lose everything and go to goal, it's unfair and draconian for sure. I have no chance, I pray it doesn't happen, even with my H&S policy in place. That's the killer, why would anyone open themselves up to the risks by owning a small business. The cost of compliance is also a deterrent, but there's money in it, that's the big flaw in the system.

Its a legitimate concern, but I think that the probability is very slim. I don't know of any precedent that supports your fear.

Originally Posted by Tahr

Its a legitimate concern, but I think that the probability is very slim. I don't know of any precedent that supports your fear.

I don't want to be first, if I own a logging company, it would have been closed or sold the stress would kill me.
Test and tagging is a sample of the crap with H&S, builders every 3 months, engineering workshops every 3 or 6 mths, I have a couple of Engineering companies at a cost of over 3k every 3 months, including some repairs. This work can basically be done by an untrained idiot using a testing machine, a compedent person, whatever that is, or someone with a EST qualification but no practical experience! Testing single phase must be a challenge and three phase would be a nightmare for most. But on goes the tag and alls good, really, 3 k every three months for some unqualified guy or a nil practical experience guy to say alls safe? I have some very experienced guys working for me and at times it's still a struggle to sort some of this gear out. But there's the joke, it's all about paper work and money. Anyone doing this work should be suitably qualified with practical experience, or it's a rout!

Originally Posted by Maca49

Anyone doing this work should be suitably qualified with practical experience, or it's a rout!

thats me fucked

Originally Posted by Maca49

I don't want to be first, if I own a logging company, it would have been closed or sold the stress would kill me.
Test and tagging is a sample of the crap with H&S, builders every 3 months, engineering workshops every 3 or 6 mths, I have a couple of Engineering companies at a cost of over 3k every 3 months, including some repairs. This work can basically be done by an untrained idiot using a testing machine, a compedent person, whatever that is, or someone with a EST qualification but no practical experience! Testing single phase must be a challenge and three phase would be a nightmare for most. But on goes the tag and alls good, really, 3 k every three months for some unqualified guy or a nil practical experience guy to say alls safe? I have some very experienced guys working for me and at times it's still a struggle to sort some of this gear out. But there's the joke, it's all about paper work and money. Anyone doing this work should be suitably qualified with practical experience, or it's a rout!

Why don't you send a person on the course and buy a PAT machine? You'd have covered your cost easily within 6 mths.

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Originally Posted by Koshogi

Why don't you send a person on the course and buy a PAT machine? You'd have covered your cost easily within 6 mths.

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You've hit the nail on the head! What course? An hour with the guy that sells you the machine? I've got a registered electrician and a guy with 37 yrs repairing electric motors, power tools, pumps etc, can work with unlimited voltage. Now if they are have discussions on the best way to make a machine compliant, an hours course with some with a vested interest, you gonna know shit, except what the machine tells you. It makes a mockery of Electrical Compliance
Everybody testing should not only be qualified, but they should have practical hours built up as well, a little more than fitting a plug on a lead. I get companies doing their own compliance getting me to test their extension leads single and three phase, their 3 phase equipment, their RCDs, cause their test man doesn't know how? But he can test their plug in powertools? It's a bit of a joke to me!

Originally Posted by Tahr

Its a legitimate concern, but I think that the probability is very slim. I don't know of any precedent that supports your fear.

I do some poor builder in Wellington! $60 k I think, it stinks

Originally Posted by Maca49

I do some poor builder in Wellington! $60 k I think, it stinks

Yeah. I saw that and a few others. Pretty tough. But you were talking about jail and a ruined business and thats a big step up.

In the builder's case his insurance paid $45k of the reparation that was ordered. It pays to have insurance, although I think fines can't be insured against under the Act. Only costs and reparation orders I think.

Something else I think is that almost invariably when there is a prosecution its because of some pretty damn dumb behaviour, and not just WorkSafe being picky. A few dollars for rubbers on the ladder would have mitigated the risk for that builder. Despite the builder's instructions to not use the ladder, it was on the site, so was an accident waiting to happen.

Originally Posted by Tahr

Yeah. I saw that and a few others. Pretty tough. But you were talking about jail and a ruined business and thats a big step up.

In the builder's case his insurance paid $45k of the reparation that was ordered. It pays to have insurance, although I think fines can't be insured against under the Act. Only costs and reparation orders I think.

Something else I think is that almost invariably when there is a prosecution its because of some pretty damn dumb behaviour, and not just WorkSafe being picky. A few dollars for rubbers on the ladder would have mitigated the risk for that builder. Despite the builder's instructions to not use the ladder, it was on the site, so was an accident waiting to happen.

I carry the same insurance, but it doesn't cover the fine, I think a death would see me wiped out, be it me fault or not, that means the business gone and 5 guys looking for other jobs to support their families, my approach would be more supportive. I had a customer bring in a liniser machine that had been deemed unsafe, work safe wanted a pedal switch on a lead attached to operate it, we said nope it's dangerous, has your foot captured and moving around with the piece your polishing you'd be off balance. We suggested an emergency stop on the machine. Guy asked me to ring the girl from work safe to discuss. She told me she wasn't an expert in this field but had seen the foot pedal on other machines, I told her my thoughts and she said if I signed a letter to her with my idea for her files it would be ok? She really had no idea but all the power, I cringe at these on the hoof decisions. Same as chuck covers, a dangerous addition to any lathe, and I've been working on a lathe since I was 13, but hey what do I know.

Thats true Tahr, we are not "barred" from allowing recreational hunters, visitors etc onto the property, BUT, the processes involved, and the level of trust we need to place upon those persons has lead us here to just put an end to any of that fullstop, and it is now written into farm policy, then its one less thing for us to worry about. There will be farmers out there that will continue as always, and there will be others like us who have decided its not worth the trouble.

Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

Thats true Tahr, we are not "barred" from allowing recreational hunters, visitors etc onto the property, BUT, the processes involved, and the level of trust we need to place upon those persons has lead us here to just put an end to any of that fullstop, and it is now written into farm policy, then its one less thing for us to worry about. There will be farmers out there that will continue as always, and there will be others like us who have decided its not worth the trouble.

Can't argue against that approach really. Damn shame.

A slight aside.
SAR teams now have to write up and sign a risk assessment before deploying to the field and try and save lives.

Time wasting, arse covering bullshit IMHO