Thread: .22lr rifles when did it become ok that they were all just crap?

Originally Posted by gundoc

Based on your requirements, and on my 50 years of gunsmithing experience, I would suggest the following in bolt action: CZ 452, Ruger M77/22, and possibly Ruger American. In semi-auto there is only one rifle that will give a lifetime of trouble-free service (subject to normal maintenance) and that is the Ruger 10/22. I must also state that none of these rifles will give you what you want 'out of the box'. All of them will require some relatively minor tuning (well under $100) but the result will be a thoroughly reliable rifle with accuracy of at least 1/2" at 50 metres. The Sako Quad gives the appearance of quality manufacture but it is not a good design and is grossly overpriced in relation to rifles that will out perform it. The rifles I suggested will not need the attention of a gunsmith in your lifetime apart from the initial tune. They are all well designed and of quality materials, but just need a minor tweak to bring out their best. Most other rifles will eventually need repairs and/or replacement parts. Some people spend big bucks on buying after-market barrels, triggers, etc (especially with the 10/22) but the reality is that the original parts are perfectly good with some skilled attention, and are quite capable of the requirements you seek. The Ruger rotary magazine is miles ahead of any other magazine for reliability. Back in the 1920's to 1950's there was no shortage of skilled workmen in the firearms industry, but today that situation is reversed. Not only are there almost no skilled workmen in the industry, but the majority of them are, at best, process workers. That is why virtually all modern firearms require some precision handwork to bring out their best.

The Ruger is in general rubbish and has been outsold by the Marlin semi action worldwide by somewhere between 1:2 and 1:3 times. The Ruger magazine is a good design but not the best when teamed up with a semi auto as it is renowned for clogging up with blow back gases. To get Rugers shooting OK will cost you a lot more than $100 with todays gunsmithing rates.

If you want a nice semi look out for a Marlin 60 DLX. @sneeze has a very nice example and they do not cost the earth.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

The Ruger is in general rubbish and has been outsold by the Marlin semi action worldwide by somewhere between 1:2 and 1:3 times. The Ruger magazine is a good design but not the best when teamed up with a semi auto as it is renowned for clogging up with blow back gases. To get Rugers shooting OK will cost you a lot more than $100 with todays gunsmithing rates.

If you want a nice semi look out for a Marlin 60 DLX. @sneeze has a very nice example and they do not cost the earth.

The two most common semi-autos that gave problems were the Marlin (misfiring, loose barrel, magazine problems) and the Sterling M20 (broken firing pins, incorrect assembly, loose/missing ejectors). All .22 semi-autos need periodic cleaning to remove powder residue, and some are worse than others in this regard (the 10/22 not being one of them). The worst thing that an owner can do with a .22 semi-auto is put oil in it. This acts as a magnet for dust and firing residue. The full tune on a Ruger 10/22 (2.5 lb crisp trigger pull, refit barrel, tune for subs, supply and fit buffer pin) should not cost any more than $60 from any competent gunsmith. It was a job I happily did for $50 and made good money as it takes about 30-40 minutes, and still under 1 hour if you include a threading job.

Originally Posted by gundoc

The two most common semi-autos that gave problems were the Marlin (misfiring, loose barrel, magazine problems) and the Sterling M20 (broken firing pins, incorrect assembly, loose/missing ejectors). All .22 semi-autos need periodic cleaning to remove powder residue, and some are worse than others in this regard (the 10/22 not being one of them). The worst thing that an owner can do with a .22 semi-auto is put oil in it. This acts as a magnet for dust and firing residue. The full tune on a Ruger 10/22 (2.5 lb crisp trigger pull, refit barrel, tune for subs, supply and fit buffer pin) should not cost any more than $60 from any competent gunsmith. It was a job I happily did for $50 and made good money as it takes about 30-40 minutes, and still under 1 hour if you include a threading job.

I would like you to find one that will do that work for that money today! The Marlin, out of the box, does not generally need anything other than a weaker trigger return spring (get rid of the ridiculous anti law suit one) and and if you want a slight change to the trigger blade to improve the trigger; mine took me about 10 minutes and a floppy disc. The open design of the Marlin mags makes them very easy to clean. The shops here seem to prefer to sell people the Ruger so they can also sell them the extras they require to make them do what they should have done from the factory.

As a past comp shooter and long term rimfire hobbyist I would like to challenge some comments made here. The notion that most 22s now sold - marlin, cz, savage etc are all of very low quality and are absolute crap is opinion and nothing more than that. It is certainly not fact. It is quite opposed to the views and buying behaviour of most kiwi shooters/farmers who buy 97-98% of their 22s in the $0-800 dollar category, while just 2% of buyers choose the high priced Sako Quads/Weihrauch etc. This breakdown from manager of large rifle retailer.

We all enjoy a well constructed rifle with nicely machined action, fine tolerances, fluted barrel, jewelled bolt, beautifully grained timber etc - but this construction quality is not the primary measure we use when buying 22s here in NZ. Not by a country mile. Why - because our 22s are generally bought to be day to day hunters - worker rifles. Instead of focussing on just build quality, as Savage 1 points out above we go for operational or functional quality and we look for little hunting 22s that will offer durability, reliability, very good accuracy plus ease of maintenance. If a person uses a rifle only 2-3 times per year and in most careful conditions then by all means buy an expensive well made unit, but if you shoot alot, are wandering through the matagouri or using trucks/quads/bikes etc then the high priced/classic pieces stay in the closet - and its the capable little worker 22s that get 97% of this practical use.

Have had the opportunity to thoroughly bench test somewhere between 60-100 .22 makes and models in the last 20 years - new models from manufacturers and second hand units - and there are in fact some very sound 22 performers which cost very little but which function very well and shoot superbly on the bench and in the field. We have also shot just under 20,000 bunnies from just one of our stations alone in the last 7 years - in depth field testing which shows out the merits and faults of any rifle. And from this experience I have no hesitation in recommending a number of models and makes as having the right operating qualities for NZ conditions. These reliable and often inexpensive little performers include CZ and Brno models - excellent wee hunters - Marlin 925 and 980, Marlin 795 and model 60 semiautos, upgrade Savages, Winchester 9422, Norinco Em332, polished JW15s and others.

Each of these little units can be deadly effective off the bench as well as in the field in the right hands. Some have proven superbly accurate e.g. a Norinco Em332 which shot 4 consecutive groups averaging 0.6" at 100 meters; two Marlin 60 semiautomatics which touched 1/4" for groups at 50m (5 shot) and averaged 0.29 and 0.39 respectively for four group sets, JW15s which easily outshot Brnos, and Marlin 925s shooting into the 0.3s. They are well capable of matching any european sporters - and beat many off the bench. These same rifles have proven themselves thoroughly on the range and in the field. This is operational quality and its what most kiwi 22 buyers seek out.

Re semiauto 22s I've tested alot and ruger is one we no longer use - having had 6-7. They have consistently poor accuracy out of the box and I fundamentally object to buying a rifle then having to spend alot on getting it to shoot properly. The days are long gone when above mentioned ruger work would happen for $50-60. Two inexpensive semiautos that shine on the bench and in the field ( have tested maybe 12-15 of them) when doing side-by-side analysis with other makes are the two little marlins. The simple little 795 will comfortably shoot under 0.5" at 50 out of the box, and average round 0.58" for four group sets, and the 60s will drop to 1/4" at 50m - stunning accuracy. In terms of value/performance the little walnut stock 60DLX special at about $575 easily wins the semi race. We have used alot of these marlin semiautos in recent years - after they completely dismantled my own prejudice against semiauto inaccuracy - and we have almost zero reliability problems. Give them the right ammos and maintenance and they are trouble free.

I've had some beautiful 22s and tested others, but when it is time to head for the hills it is the highly competent super accurate wee workers that are picked out of the gunrack. And there are quite a number of these little units which give high quality performance in the field. That's the quality we most often look for in a 22, and it's what kiwis try to buy.

Originally Posted by mudgripz

As a past comp shooter and long term rimfire hobbyist I would like to challenge some comments made here. The notion that most 22s now sold - marlin, cz, savage etc are all of very low quality and are absolute crap is opinion and nothing more than that. It is certainly not fact. It is quite opposed to the views and buying behaviour of most kiwi shooters/farmers who buy 97-98% of their 22s in the $0-800 dollar category, while just 2% of buyers choose the high priced Sako Quads/Weihrauch etc. This breakdown from manager of large rifle retailer.

We all enjoy a well constructed rifle with nicely machined action, fine tolerances, fluted barrel, jewelled bolt, beautifully grained timber etc - but this construction quality is not the primary measure we use when buying 22s here in NZ. Not by a country mile. Why - because our 22s are generally bought to be day to day hunters - worker rifles. Instead of focussing on just build quality, as Savage 1 points out above we go for operational or functional quality and we look for little hunting 22s that will offer durability, reliability, very good accuracy plus ease of maintenance. If a person uses a rifle only 2-3 times per year and in most careful conditions then by all means buy an expensive well made unit, but if you shoot alot, are wandering through the matagouri or using trucks/quads/bikes etc then the high priced/classic pieces stay in the closet - and its the capable little worker 22s that get 97% of this practical use.

Have had the opportunity to thoroughly bench test somewhere between 60-100 .22 makes and models in the last 20 years - new models from manufacturers and second hand units - and there are in fact some very sound 22 performers which cost very little but which function very well and shoot superbly on the bench and in the field. We have also shot just under 20,000 bunnies from just one of our stations alone in the last 7 years - in depth field testing which shows out the merits and faults of any rifle. And from this experience I have no hesitation in recommending a number of models and makes as having the right operating qualities for NZ conditions. These reliable and often inexpensive little performers include CZ and Brno models - excellent wee hunters - Marlin 925 and 980, Marlin 795 and model 60 semiautos, upgrade Savages, Winchester 9422, Norinco Em332, polished JW15s and others.

Each of these little units can be deadly effective off the bench as well as in the field in the right hands. Some have proven superbly accurate e.g. a Norinco Em332 which shot 4 consecutive groups averaging 0.6" at 100 meters; two Marlin 60 semiautomatics which touched 1/4" for groups at 50m (5 shot) and averaged 0.29 and 0.39 respectively for four group sets, JW15s which easily outshot Brnos, and Marlin 925s shooting into the 0.3s. They are well capable of matching any european sporters - and beat many off the bench. These same rifles have proven themselves thoroughly on the range and in the field. This is operational quality and its what most kiwi 22 buyers seek out.

Re semiauto 22s I've tested alot and ruger is one we no longer use - having had 6-7. They have consistently poor accuracy out of the box and I fundamentally object to buying a rifle then having to spend alot on getting it to shoot properly. The days are long gone when above mentioned ruger work would happen for $50-60. Two inexpensive semiautos that shine on the bench and in the field ( have tested maybe 12-15 of them) when doing side-by-side analysis with other makes are the two little marlins. The simple little 795 will comfortably shoot under 0.5" at 50 out of the box, and average round 0.58" for four group sets, and the 60s will drop to 1/4" at 50m - stunning accuracy. In terms of value/performance the little walnut stock 60DLX special at about $575 easily wins the semi race. We have used alot of these marlin semiautos in recent years - after they completely dismantled my own prejudice against semiauto inaccuracy - and we have almost zero reliability problems. Give them the right ammos and maintenance and they are trouble free.

I've had some beautiful 22s and tested others, but when it is time to head for the hills it is the highly competent super accurate wee workers that are picked out of the gunrack. And there are quite a number of these little units which give high quality performance in the field. That's the quality we most often look for in a 22, and it's what kiwis try to buy.

You are just challenging one persons opinion with your own, it doesn't make it fact ...

Originally Posted by Shamus

You are just challenging one persons opinion with your own, it doesn't make it fact ...

That is pretty balanced. An opinion that is backed up with testing and numbers. As he said his opinion was challenged, and it his opinion has now changed.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

That is pretty balanced. An opinion that is backed up with testing and numbers. As he said his opinion was challenged, and it his opinion has now changed.

True - I wasn't arguing with his facts and figures but his opinion on what people buy and why - that is an opinion. My post was pretty poorly worded

Originally Posted by Shamus

True - I wasn't arguing with his facts and figures but his opinion on what people buy and why - that is an opinion. My post was pretty poorly worded

With you.

One of my favourite rifles would be the second hand (probably a lot more than two) Norinco JW-15. Cost a whole $100. Got it cut down and took it to range to sight it in at 50m. First group (5 shots) was after bore sighting. Then shifted to the dot.



Finished with another group



Would be better if someone taught me how to shoot. Instructions I've had so far are load a round and keep it pointing that way.

Certainly has made for some interesting reading and have been fervently looking around and have seen a few things on trademe etc. Re the EM332 - not at that price.
Have been swinging around to the CZ452 actually have used a Brno Mod 1 a lot and owned a Jw-15 for some time - it started to give trouble with inconsistent accuracy after about 1500 rounds went from extremely accurate to shocking and the zero moved around. Think it was the stock in the end that let it down and was the cause. Should have just relieved the barrel channel and probably would of fixed it but sold it on. Wanted a semi-auto but really I don't think I will be happy with one.
Like the Anschutz and Weihrauch but a: No shops around here have one to look and test for fit. b: for the weihrauch hog back stock should be obsolete these days with the predominance of optics. The CZ I know is a good fit/stock size, maybe get the barrel cut to 16" (what the other 6 inches are there for is anyone's guess on a .22lr).

A Model 60 DLX would be nice but a tube mag just doesn't fit my needs.

Originally Posted by mudgripz

As a past comp shooter and long term rimfire hobbyist I would like to challenge some comments made here. The notion that most 22s now sold - marlin, cz, savage etc are all of very low quality and are absolute crap is opinion and nothing more than that. It is certainly not fact. It is quite opposed to the views and buying behaviour of most kiwi shooters/farmers who buy 97-98% of their 22s in the $0-800 dollar category, while just 2% of buyers choose the high priced Sako Quads/Weihrauch etc. This breakdown from manager of large rifle retailer.

We all enjoy a well constructed rifle with nicely machined action, fine tolerances, fluted barrel, jewelled bolt, beautifully grained timber etc - but this construction quality is not the primary measure we use when buying 22s here in NZ. Not by a country mile. Why - because our 22s are generally bought to be day to day hunters - worker rifles. Instead of focussing on just build quality, as Savage 1 points out above we go for operational or functional quality and we look for little hunting 22s that will offer durability, reliability, very good accuracy plus ease of maintenance. If a person uses a rifle only 2-3 times per year and in most careful conditions then by all means buy an expensive well made unit, but if you shoot alot, are wandering through the matagouri or using trucks/quads/bikes etc then the high priced/classic pieces stay in the closet - and its the capable little worker 22s that get 97% of this practical use.

Have had the opportunity to thoroughly bench test somewhere between 60-100 .22 makes and models in the last 20 years - new models from manufacturers and second hand units - and there are in fact some very sound 22 performers which cost very little but which function very well and shoot superbly on the bench and in the field. We have also shot just under 20,000 bunnies from just one of our stations alone in the last 7 years - in depth field testing which shows out the merits and faults of any rifle. And from this experience I have no hesitation in recommending a number of models and makes as having the right operating qualities for NZ conditions. These reliable and often inexpensive little performers include CZ and Brno models - excellent wee hunters - Marlin 925 and 980, Marlin 795 and model 60 semiautos, upgrade Savages, Winchester 9422, Norinco Em332, polished JW15s and others.

Each of these little units can be deadly effective off the bench as well as in the field in the right hands. Some have proven superbly accurate e.g. a Norinco Em332 which shot 4 consecutive groups averaging 0.6" at 100 meters; two Marlin 60 semiautomatics which touched 1/4" for groups at 50m (5 shot) and averaged 0.29 and 0.39 respectively for four group sets, JW15s which easily outshot Brnos, and Marlin 925s shooting into the 0.3s. They are well capable of matching any european sporters - and beat many off the bench. These same rifles have proven themselves thoroughly on the range and in the field. This is operational quality and its what most kiwi 22 buyers seek out.

Re semiauto 22s I've tested alot and ruger is one we no longer use - having had 6-7. They have consistently poor accuracy out of the box and I fundamentally object to buying a rifle then having to spend alot on getting it to shoot properly. The days are long gone when above mentioned ruger work would happen for $50-60. Two inexpensive semiautos that shine on the bench and in the field ( have tested maybe 12-15 of them) when doing side-by-side analysis with other makes are the two little marlins. The simple little 795 will comfortably shoot under 0.5" at 50 out of the box, and average round 0.58" for four group sets, and the 60s will drop to 1/4" at 50m - stunning accuracy. In terms of value/performance the little walnut stock 60DLX special at about $575 easily wins the semi race. We have used alot of these marlin semiautos in recent years - after they completely dismantled my own prejudice against semiauto inaccuracy - and we have almost zero reliability problems. Give them the right ammos and maintenance and they are trouble free.

I've had some beautiful 22s and tested others, but when it is time to head for the hills it is the highly competent super accurate wee workers that are picked out of the gunrack. And there are quite a number of these little units which give high quality performance in the field. That's the quality we most often look for in a 22, and it's what kiwis try to buy.

You bring up some interesting points .
Those group sizes are impressive .
You must have been using wind indicators and Target ammo ?
What groups did your Competition rifles shoot ?


Ken

Originally Posted by mudgripz

We all enjoy a well constructed rifle with nicely machined action, fine tolerances, fluted barrel, jewelled bolt, beautifully grained timber etc - but this construction quality is not the primary measure we use when buying 22s here in NZ. Not by a country mile. Why - because our 22s are generally bought to be day to day hunters - worker rifles. Instead of focussing on just build quality, as Savage 1 points out above we go for operational or functional quality and we look for little hunting 22s that will offer durability, reliability, very good accuracy plus ease of maintenance. If a person uses a rifle only 2-3 times per year and in most careful conditions then by all means buy an expensive well made unit, but if you shoot alot, are wandering through the matagouri or using trucks/quads/bikes etc then the high priced/classic pieces stay in the closet - and its the capable little worker 22s that get 97% of this practical use.

Just to clarify my earlier post this is where the opinion is - I have had for years a lovely little German made 22 mag, lovely walnut stock, Kahles scope and it gets used - for everything. Has been bounced around in a scabbard on a motorbike etc. Its the rifle that gets used the most so I bought a nice one and I use it - it doesn't stay in the closet.

Shamus, you're probably not like most kiwis who buy their working .22 rifles in the sub 1K category.

When discussing the masses, generalizations have to be made.

Originally Posted by gundoc

The two most common semi-autos that gave problems were the Marlin (misfiring, loose barrel, magazine problems) and the Sterling M20 (broken firing pins, incorrect assembly, loose/missing ejectors). All .22 semi-autos need periodic cleaning to remove powder residue, and some are worse than others in this regard (the 10/22 not being one of them). The worst thing that an owner can do with a .22 semi-auto is put oil in it. This acts as a magnet for dust and firing residue. The full tune on a Ruger 10/22 (2.5 lb crisp trigger pull, refit barrel, tune for subs, supply and fit buffer pin) should not cost any more than $60 from any competent gunsmith. It was a job I happily did for $50 and made good money as it takes about 30-40 minutes, and still under 1 hour if you include a threading job.

Is this tune up a common job? I think this is what I'll do to mine even if it costs more than that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by anderset20

Is this tune up a common job? I think this is what I'll do to mine even if it costs more than that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The difficult part will be finding a gunsmith of @gundoc's abilities. Most will at most just replace barrels on a 10/22 and that is all they are interested in as far as rimfire is concerned. Gundoc still has a very enviable reputation around here. I'm still miffed at finding he had retired when I wanted some work done.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

The difficult part will be finding a gunsmith of @gundoc's abilities. Most will at most just replace barrels on a 10/22 and that is all they are interested in as far as rimfire is concerned. Gundoc still has a very enviable reputation around here. I'm still miffed at finding he had retired when I wanted some work done.

I still keep my hand in for selected jobs/customers provided you are not in too much of a hurry (yeah, yeah! I can hear you saying 'So what's new?'). PM me if you have a need.