Thread: Cartridge and Rifle Camberings Availability.

Greetings All,
There have been a couple of threads lately on the possible demise of cartridges due to manufacturer disinterest or government edict. I thought I would do an not very scientific survey of chamberings available in NZ (or would be if there was still supply available). Clearly there are stacks of rifles chambered for the current two wonder 6.5mm cartridges while the .260 Rem is scarce. A lot of rifles these days have short or semi short actions which will not chamber any of the 06 cartridges but the old standards 30-06 and its spawn, the .270 and .25-06 are still available. Interestingly the .30-06 rifles are often have wood stocks which betrays the age group of its devotees.
For ammo who would know under current circumstances but generally if there is adequate demand and people are prepared to pay the price for the less common stuff then it will be produced. Cartridges which have been popular for a significant period of time should remain in production for a very long time after the production of rifles ceases eg the .303. The cartridges that would concern me are recent introductions for which popularity is low. If the cases can not easily be formed from anything else. 7mm-08 cases can easily be made from .308 cases. They are a little short but work fine. There are rifles currently available for the .350 Legend which is an orphan case. Yes I know that it is similar in head size to the .223 but it is just enough bigger to cause a problem.
Recent supposed rumours about the demise of .300 Mag cartridges by government edict had me baffled for a bit until I realised where it may have come from. All public rifle ranges will need to be certified in the future. To do this a safety template has to be calculated. The inputs for this include the type and power of the ammo in use. Some current rifle ranges have a maximum muzzle energy measured in Joules for the cartridges that can be used. This is not determined by government but by the range owner based on what template he can fit on the land available. A srambled version of this may be the scource.
Regards Grandpamac.

for the hundreth time...there is NO SHORTAGE if folks stop blasting away at paper or hoarding ammunition...... if a fella fired 3 to check zero,3 to confirm zero that leaves 14 in a box...even if he fires that same 6 rounds on range and 1 round to kill a deer he gets just about 3 deer per box of ammunition which is piss poor going really... makes firing 2 to check zero a bit more attractive...and punching paper with the rimfire or centrefire and cast loads just that much more so.
the days of mag dumping for the hell of it may be gone for the time being (pretty hard without a semi anyway) but with a LITTLE prudence there is more than enough to go around.....heck you fellas took the piss out of toilet paper hoarders....... for good reason.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

A srambled version of this may be the scource.

The first rumours of it were heard back in 2019 after the chch shooting. The concern was that the police were going to try and ban everything they thought they could get away with banning, including everything over a certain amount of power. That bit obviously didn't happen but in the same way we still get recently resurfaced rock dwellers wondering where all the ammo has gone, it takes a long time for rumours to filter their way down to some people. I don't think it's a new rumour - just a very old one that popped back up.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

for the hundreth time...there is NO SHORTAGE if folks stop blasting away at paper or hoarding ammunition...... if a fella fired 3 to check zero,3 to confirm zero that leaves 14 in a box...even if he fires that same 6 rounds on range and 1 round to kill a deer he gets just about 3 deer per box of ammunition which is piss poor going really... makes firing 2 to check zero a bit more attractive...and punching paper with the rimfire or centrefire and cast loads just that much more so.
the days of mag dumping for the hell of it may be gone for the time being (pretty hard without a semi anyway) but with a LITTLE prudence there is more than enough to go around.....heck you fellas took the piss out of toilet paper hoarders....... for good reason.

Greetings @Micky Duck,
Thanks for your reply. I was trying to deal with a couple of specific unfounded rumours in the thread so rather glossed over the panic buying that drives temporary shortages. Due partly to nature and nurture I am particlarly prudent with ammo expentiture having never carried out the endless strings of test loads that some feel are neccesary. If a rifle needs that sort of work to get it to shoot well I would rather it belonged to someone else.
Regards Grandpamac.
PS. I mentioned the .264 Win Mag recently in a post so looked it up. New factory loaded cartridges are available from Remington (the cartridge section) at $100.00US for a packet of 20. .264 cases can be made from 7mm Rem Mag cases with one stroke of the press. We shold all be handloaders.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

for the hundreth time...there is NO SHORTAGE if folks stop blasting away at paper or hoarding ammunition...... if a fella fired 3 to check zero,3 to confirm zero that leaves 14 in a box...even if he fires that same 6 rounds on range and 1 round to kill a deer he gets just about 3 deer per box of ammunition which is piss poor going really... makes firing 2 to check zero a bit more attractive...and punching paper with the rimfire or centrefire and cast loads just that much more so.
the days of mag dumping for the hell of it may be gone for the time being (pretty hard without a semi anyway) but with a LITTLE prudence there is more than enough to go around.....heck you fellas took the piss out of toilet paper hoarders....... for good reason.

I find it interesting that people on this forum should be taking paper punchers to task for wasting ammunition as if range shooting is not a legitimate hobby As for mag dumping anybody who has fired a mad minute or speed comp or even cowboy shooting is gaining experience and having fun shooting at there own expense. Each to his own but I try to get to the range two or three times a week so try to have an adequate supply of ammo for my needs. There is so much 223 and 7.62x39 ammo laying around after the big confiscation that much of it will be around for years to come, as the amount of 303 and 3006 still turning up proves. If not for hoarders it would not be around today.

well actually if you re read what I wrote....... actually just the bit after the brackets will do..... you cant have it both ways...complain about shortages and in same breath use like ther eis no tomorrow...with a little prudence there is plenty to go around...heck I was giving dannyb shit about using up components in his load developement...Im a tight wad and hate wasteage..... my problem child rifle is parked up for now till I can bring myslef to use up more components on paper to sort it... thats just me..I wont run out in a hurry as have been careful and have small supply on hand.... small being operative word.

So, in conclusion ... there's no real shortage until we hear gunfire slowing down.

Originally Posted by Cordite

So, in conclusion ... there's no real shortage until we hear gunfire slowing down.

Just a quick look in the gunsafe and 10-12 bricks of 22 1800 rounds of 7.62x39 about 480 rounds 50 BMG all to be fired through bolt action rifles and not one animal will be harmed in the process so as they say your mileage may vary but every body has there own opinion about shortages,and mine is that those that saw the shortages of 22 ammo and blackpowder and primers in the late 1990's early 2000's stocked up and are now helping those that did not.

helping out others is good.... there is lots of good powder in the 50bmg cases too if you really get short LOL....

At least you lot have Belmont locally and ADI over the water... in the UK we have Eley (.22LR and pistol rounds only) and Radway Green (military ammo forbidden for civilian purchase but some still 'appears' for sale).

So looking at the component parts of a round:

Bullet-

There will always be an ingenious/entrepreneurial person who can work out how to make bullets. For 'cup and core' style bullets, you can make .224 bullets by making jackets from old 22LR cases and get the lead from batteries, old wheel/fishing weights, recovered range lead etc. Bigger cals often rely on Berger J4 jackets being imported, but I'm sure 'where there is a will, there is a way' in terms of making them domestically. Big investments here are swaging/forming dies and a press with enough leverage to use them. Keep in mind that RCBS means Rockchuck Bullet Swadge.

Seems you already have Targex which work well on game and range, so a big plus here.

Something even 'easier' (i.e less labour intensive) to make are lathe/CNC turned copper bullets. What costs so much is the raw material and how you need to alloy/treat it to get good expansion, then the machinery required to turn them, and finally QC required to ensure the bullet is of sufficient quality/consistency. Due to these factors, copper is always going to be expensive, but I'm not paying the Dick Turpin rates that the local UK copper bullet makers are charging at the moment due to 'lead-free' fear mongering...

Might not be able to make Hornady ELDX/A Tip in your shed, but I'd rather buy/make 10k of a projectile with inferior BC vs buy a few hundred of a 'super duper' bullet which may never be seen again or require organ/firstborn child sales for a restock.

Case-

What surprises me about the supposed 'reloading shortage' is that brass prices have either remained stable or only crept up a little bit. Lapua has taken a noticeable hike here in the UK, but I suspect that's down to stupid political decisions (Brexit). Anyway, you can always find 'once fired' brass for sale, although taking the seller at their word is often a risky proposition.

Brass lasts a long time, and despite the recent annealing craze (instead of buying top tier machines, you could buy enough good brass to outlast several barrels of your chosen chambering and probably your own lifetime!) it does last a long time. Most major ammo manufacturers still flame anneal...

Anyway, if you read a proper reloading book ( Earl Naramore's Principles and Practice of Loading Ammunition), you'll realise the evolution of ammunition being available as brass cartridges.

Basically, your case acts as a chamber plug, with the bolt merely holding it in place. Considering the expansion and subsequent spring back these cases endure under firing, and subsequent reloading, we are very lucky that they last for multiple loadings. Furthermore, the fact that you can often pick up brass 'for free' from a local range or be given them by generous individuals means the most costly and labour intensive item required is actually the easiest to acquire!

However, caveat imperator if you like shooting obsolete chamberings. Whilst a lot of reforming might be possible to yield the correct dimensions (taking time and expense through annealing and forming dies) , don't get stuck with Berdan primed cases... unless you have a direct line to RWS, Murom or a third world world government arsenal that still makes them! Good segue onto...

Primer-

Out of all the components, this is certainly the most anxiety inducing in terms of supply and has been know to cause grown men to act like teenage girls at a handbag sale...



Primers are relatively complex to manufacture (but not as bad as powder) since you need to setup your factory in line with the principle that your entire facility could explode if things are not managed properly. Supposedly, Winchester housed their primer manufacturing section in a flimsy indoor chicken coupe to reduce potential shrapnel etc.

Anyway, a Boxer primer is made up of three parts, primer cup (what we see when looking at the back of a loaded round), primer compound and anvil. There are three general dimensions for primers, small rifle/pistol, large pistol and large rifle (although BMG and shotgun primers also exist). Difference between types are narrowed down to primer cup thickness and the amount of priming compound. Magnum primers are usually designed to offer a more robust primer cup which deals with higher pressures and more priming compound to give better ignition to a longer powder column or harder to ignite powder (usually ball powder). There are also 'AR' variants designed to accommodate floating firing pins.

There isn't much to say with regards to this. Trying to reload primers by salvaging spent ones, removing the anvil, pounding out the dent, annealing the cup and repriming with cap gun powder, then re-seating the anvil is both dangerous and futile. There are only a few primer manufacturers worldwide that offer civillian/commercial sales, here are the ones I know of:

Federal
Remington
CCI (Cascade Cartridge Inc.) Note that all three of these companies are owned by the US conglomerate Vista Outdoors, monopoly much?
Winchester
Murom/Wolf/Tula- now banned due to Putin being naughty
MagTech- Brazillian ammunition plant who I would happily be a sales agent for, so long as there was plenty of 'R&R' in Rio and São Paulo
RWS- German
Sellier & Bellot- Czech
Fiocchi- Italian
PPU- Serbia (these might be rebrands from another source)
Unis Ginex- Bosnia and Herzegovina

What may ease things for you lot is the fact that several Asian government arsenals make primers (think India, China, Malaysia, South Korea etc.) so maybe some creative thinking, diplomacy and a little 'green persuasion' could see you flush with primers from questionable sources and dubious quality. But if going BOOM is all that is required, better than nothing!

For those wanting true 'lead free' ammo, keep in mind that lead styphanate is the primary compound in the priming mixture. Federal, Murom and Fiocchi have made lead free primers but none are commercially available at the moment. If you want lead free, learn to bowhunt or if you are not good enough to do that, please give up shooting

What surprises me is the fact that ADI are not making primers, as they almost certainly were during WWII. What we are seeing in terms of primer prices at the moment might justify setting up a factory, but if prices drop then the investment would be wasted. Another fact is that wages are way too high in most places to make this a viable prospect. Some form of automation might improve things, but you can't base a multi million dollar facility on the fact that people are paying over the odds at the moment.

Powder-

The last and probably most important bit. Whilst you lot are lucky enough to be 'over the water' from possibly the world's best small arms powder producer, ADI, it seems things are not so rosy in terms of supply.

We in the UK are worst hit, as no more lovely Varget due to REACH banning certain powders.

As far as I can tell, only ball powder is made in the USA. Canada has a facility, and Scotland used to have an ICI one which is long gone

Ramshot ball powders are made in Belgium, Vihtavuori in Finalnd and Reload Swiss is obvious by name. Think Norma also make powder.

Several companies just re-label powders, e.g Reloader 17 is actually RS60.

The war in Ukraine has diverted a lot of European supply, so things not looking too good. As with primers, this is stuff you can't make at home!

To sum up, things are not as bad as they are at first glance. If you were to stock up, keep in mind that powder and primers last years/decades if stored correctly. Seen a lot of pictures coming from the US where yard/car boot sales have turned up hoards from old reloaders. Something to keep in mind!

Greetings and thanks everyone,
Having seen a number of supply shortages come and go I try to keep a minimum of two years supply of components for at least some of my rifles. To simplify this my .308, .223 and old soldier rifles can both be loaded with either AR2206H or Benchmark 8208 and most of the others with either AR2209 or AR2213SC. Small and large rifle standard primers cover all but one rifle so I like to keep one brick of one of these in reserve. This is mostly the small rifle version as the .223 rifles get shot most. Projectiles mostly along the same lines. I will get another brick of Large rifle primers when they are easily available plus likely some more .224 projectiles and some more of the Greek .303 projectile to eke out my 174 grain RN's but other than that my current modest stocks will do for some time.
Regards Grandpamac.

I’m not sure if the ‘there is no shortage’ sentiment is to say that things are as they have always been... but one would have to ask.. why are most of the retailers out of stock of so much of their components and product? Why are components selling at a 200% markup on the auction sites? One would have to surmise that things are indeed not normal, and that many shelves are bereft of their normal quantities of stock.

Originally Posted by -BW-

I’m not sure if the ‘there is no shortage’ sentiment is to say that things are as they have always been... but one would have to ask.. why are most of the retailers out of stock of so much of their components and product? Why are components selling at a 200% markup on the auction sites? One would have to surmise that things are indeed not normal, and that many shelves are bereft of their normal quantities of stock.

Greetings @-BW-,
There is a very simple answer. PANIC BUYING IN THE US. It has been well documented and is driven by the US election cycle. The current one started in the US in early 2000 when it started to look possible that Tump may lose the election later that year. Manufacturers keep production steady to keep costs down and profits up and concentrate on the high profit lines as they know that every boom ends in a bust. As the panic slows down shelves are restocked but at the end of the supply chain we are the last to see this happen. Local stockpiling by firearms users to ensure their supply and hoarding by some make things worse. It really is that simple. Things should ease through this year and into next depending on the US Mid Term results but expect the cycle to return in early 2024.
Regards Grandpamac.

You know my feelings on this subject but as a new reloader I struggled to gauge what was a reasonable amount to have in stock for my needs as opposed to just hoarding. I’m definitely shooting more than I have been in the past few years and have three calibers, soon to be a fourth, I’ll be reloading for. So what’s my projected usage??? Who the hell knows and worst case scenario is that we are squeezed out completely by lack of overseas supply and ongoing restrictions in country.
I know this much, I won’t be selling the 270 or the 223 and will treat everything else as a hobby, a matter of interest in furthering my knowledge and will just pick up bits and pieces as time goes on.
What else can we do? Everyone’s situation is different and we are a tinpot pacific island at the ass end of nowhere, right at the very end of the food chain for large suppliers, so it’s just crystal ball gazing and trying to cover our asses for the now and future eventualities.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @-BW-,
There is a very simple answer. PANIC BUYING IN THE US. It has been well documented and is driven by the US election cycle. The current one started in the US in early 2000 when it started to look possible that Tump may lose the election later that year. Manufacturers keep production steady to keep costs down and profits up and concentrate on the high profit lines as they know that every boom ends in a bust. As the panic slows down shelves are restocked but at the end of the supply chain we are the last to see this happen. Local stockpiling by firearms users to ensure their supply and hoarding by some make things worse. It really is that simple. Things should ease through this year and into next depending on the US Mid Term results but expect the cycle to return in early 2024.
Regards Grandpamac.

The very large armaments contracts issued for tender by the US govt are having an enormous impact on public supply. These contracts must be a financial windfall to manufacturers with the Ukraine 'aid' package now around $80 Billion, this is on top of the huge expansion in armament procurement. Tenders can be viewed online. Even in this link https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12040 listed is 59,000,000 rounds of small arms ammo.
Tenders issued by day: https://www.defense.gov/News/Contracts/