Thread: Ever wondered why H&H takes years to make a gun?

Originally Posted by Carlsen Highway

But really the answer is no, it doesn't mean that you have pretensions of being upper class just because you want a Holland and Holland, just an appreciation for quality, a love of old school rifles and historical tradition.
Unless you do, of course.

Haha, nae chance, what wi' ma hint a' Glasweg'un 'n' Geordy. Traditions perhaps. My great grandfather died on the Somme, perhaps dropping an Enfield like one of mine. His son drowned in the Atlantic in the next war, courtesy of the Thor. Not really glorious, more futile, but family history all the same. My Enfields, having them or not, changes nothing about where I come from, but they are a link back to real people -- none of whom were Commissioned Officers, or H&H owners with old money.

Btw given your eloquent well reasoned answer above, who's 'middle class'?

I am your father Luke, join meeeeh!

Originally Posted by Cordite

Haha, nae chance, what wi' ma hint a' Glasweg'un 'n' Geordy. Traditions perhaps. My great grandfather died on the Somme, perhaps dropping an Enfield like one of mine. His son drowned in the Atlantic in the next war, courtesy of the Thor. Not really glorious, more futile, but family history all the same. My Enfields, having them or not, changes nothing about where I come from, but they are a link back to real people -- none of whom were Commissioned Officers, or H&H owners with old money.

Btw given your eloquent well reasoned answer above, who's 'middle class'?

I am your father Luke, join meeeeh!

I didn't mean you specifically! I meant that one doesnt have pretensions of class because one owns a shotgun - unless one does have pretensions of class. It depends on the owner. Some people buy Porsches because they like the cars, others because they think their neighbours will be impressed.

Put it this way; just because you own a .303 doesn't mean your not a snob.

I have a commission from the Queen, and was an officer at one stage, but you need more than that to be upper class!

The English class system your refering to doesnt really exist anymore. WW2 caused its death, and the Sixties finished it off. There are still vestiges of remaining, but you can no longer get hired because your carrying the right kind of umbrella...
Us NZ'rs didn't bring the class system with us, so its a foreign notion to Kiwis anyway. If your proud of being working class in NZ, it means you don't really know what working class means, for example.
Who's middle class? Basically everyone in NZ could be considered middle class, but the term becomes muddy and referenceless since society has changed so much since the 1930's. And we don't really understand the subtleties of it in this country to be honest.

(And it's a Lee Enfield. An Enfield is a muzzleloading rifle from the 19th Century.)

Originally Posted by Carlsen Highway

I didn't mean you specifically! I meant that one doesnt have pretensions of class because one owns a shotgun - unless one does have pretensions of class. It depends on the owner. Some people buy Porsches because they like the cars, others because they think their neighbours will be impressed.

Put it this way; just because you own a .303 doesn't mean your not a snob.

I have a commission from the Queen, and was an officer at one stage, but you need more than that to be upper class!

The English class system your refering to doesnt really exist anymore. WW2 caused its death, and the Sixties finished it off. There are still vestiges of remaining, but you can no longer get hired because your carrying the right kind of umbrella...
Us NZ'rs didn't bring the class system with us, so its a foreign notion to Kiwis anyway. If your proud of being working class in NZ, it means you don't really know what working class means, for example.
Who's middle class? Basically everyone in NZ could be considered middle class, but the term becomes muddy and referenceless since society has changed so much since the 1930's. And we don't really understand the subtleties of it in this country to be honest.

(And it's a Lee Enfield. An Enfield is a muzzleloading rifle from the 19th Century.)

What if its a P14 or a Model 1917?

Well they were called P14's. Never heard any of them called just "Enfields" until Youtube came along. And then it was always by Yanks calling them ""Enfields"" when referring to Lee Enfields for some reason. Which is ironic because Lee was an American.

Originally Posted by Carlsen Highway

I have a commission from the Queen, and was an officer at one stage, but you need more than that to be upper class!
The English class system your refering to doesnt really exist anymore. WW2 caused its death, and the Sixties finished it off. There are still vestiges of remaining, but you can no longer get hired because your carrying the right kind of umbrella...
Us NZ'rs didn't bring the class system with us, so its a foreign notion to Kiwis anyway. If your proud of being working class in NZ, it means you don't really know what working class means, for example.
Who's middle class? Basically everyone in NZ could be considered middle class, but the term becomes muddy and referenceless since society has changed so much since the 1930's. And we don't really understand the subtleties of it in this country to be honest.

@Carlsen Highway,

Except you clearly understand it sufficiently well to call out 'middle class' at someone whose opinion (right or wrong, about what is a sad waste of money) offended you - but who you otherwise don't know from Tom, Dick or Harry.

"Us NZ'rs didn't bring the class system with us, so its a foreign notion to Kiwis anyway."

Tui! If you rewind and listen carefully you may hear the angel Xenophobia's gentle, comforting song.

Oh I see - you're offended. You just want to fight. On the internet. Oh all right. By saying middle class I was mocking your self association with the working classes of England prior to WW1 - from the far reaches of New Zealand in the 21st century, a country that doesnt even have them. You are a reverse snob. I was calling you a poser in a diplomatic way.

I enjoyed your post about your so called working class origins in the form of your dead relatives on the battlefield who carried ''enfield's' or something and how they weren't officers. (Guess what, they all carried Lee Enfields, it was the army. Including, guess what, the Lee Enfields that were regulated by Holland and Holland. They made them into sniper rifles - why? Because they knew quality and how to make rifles shoot well.)

I am not so shallow as to believe owning a particular brand of gun makes anyone into anything specific, but I can see how someone like you would get all wrung up like a twisted towel in a washing machine. I wish you well with your cheap gun. I honestly do. I have cheap guns as well and enjoy them immensely.
Please tell me more about your working class family origins in as much detail as possible. While you compose that I am going to go and look at my Commission from the Queen of England for a while.

I observe that you have misunderstood the meaning of xenophobia. I will let you take that move back.

@Carlsen Highway

I need to explain. In reply to my comment "Buying an expensive gun like that, a sad ego trip" someone replied, "My ego is big enough to own one. I would even put up with middle class snobs calling me sad to do it." By Jove! I was a bit taken back, old chap, at that sort of aggression.

As for my supposedly considering myself "working class" based on me mentioning my humble origins, nope. Haha. Who would consider himself be of of his ancestors' social class simply through descent? And working class down a coal mine, you must be joking. If talking about a population study done by a sociologist, I'd no doubt currently get grouped as "middle class" in terms of education, profession, etc. No, so don't pride myself in any so called working class background, my lineage and my own childhood of simple food and second hand clothes is more a source of humility. My parents gave me help and values, no one is a self-made person. Not getting me.

The angel Xenophobia's siren song, let me explain. Pride in nationhood and particularly assumptions that you are somehow 'better than..' underlies all xenophobia. Antidote: a hard inward look.

Which brings us back to classless NZ, sure NZ immigrants left their upper social class behind them on emigrating from e.g. the UK. But only because the upper class had the land and could not come along! Social class was not left behind, it could not be. Man is social and forms societies, and societies all have social layers, from wolf packs to ant hills and cities. NZ imigrants slotted into strata in their new society. And as per the proverb about the slave unfit to become a king, they badly mistreated their new brown-skinned underlings in their land grab. NZ Social stratification is continuing to sediment out, what with more and more farms owned by large corporates, more and more families renting from landLORD and landLADY owners of multiple homes etc. Point is, this planet is too small to run away from anything.

BTW, now we've made friends, see you live in Port, do you go shooting at Bruce or at the deerstalkers'?

My dear man, that wasn't aggression. I was just pointing out the reverse snobbery of your comment. Surely you must have expected something like that when you came onto the thread and described eveyone who had posted a desire to own a Holland and Holland gun as being on a "sad ego trip"? Perhaps you meant that in a constructive way. A helpful way.

Xenophobia means a fear of foreigners, and is a synonym for racism. You're still misusing it.

I am not sure you quite understand the British class system. This just illustrates my earlier points, but is nonetheless a good thing.

Now that we are best bosom buddies, you will know me at any range by my strong opinions.

That Lee Enfield sporter you posted is loverly.I have seen a few of them,but never one with a tang safety.
Who made it?