Agree i think they see it as them police vs the rest. This is the feeling i get from them anyway.
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I haven't waded through the 6 pages of replies but is there anyone who supports this new way of thinking apart from me?
The government has it's reasons and the vehicle they use is the Police. The Police don't just take on extra work in the general sense without a directive from up the food chain. So your angst should be at central government. Where is falls over is leaving it solely to the Police, they have a pretty crap system for managing all things firearms related (it not most things). The ground troops and most in the arms offices around NZ also have a poor understanding of the law and a lot of things related to firearms.
I know of one person in NZ that had a D class and was importing so called "A" cat parts. They were then on-selling them to a man of a middle eastern background who was believed to be supplying a well known gang in West Auckland in an "E" cat form. So instead of laying all this on the NZ Police, perhaps point the finger at some of our pairs who bend the rules daily while we sit by and say "its not us, its not our problem". Well if the replies here are anything to go by, it is now your problem and it is not going away.
Paraphrasing police statements and interpreting them to suit your own agenda or way of thinking is also pretty small time. Think of what the real issue is and try to get your thinking aligned before commenting. This is the internet however, it hardly reflects the real world at times.
I'm all for tougher laws around firearms and firearms related offences. It is however a complex machine involving a lot a working parts and government departments don't often get that right.
I hope you reported that to the Police then.
There are issues with what is happening, firstly the Police could say every part for every semi auto is E cat because the rifle it is part of can be configured in an Ecat configuration (ie magazine or pistol grip). Then there is the implication that an Ecat rifle is significantly more dangerous to the public and the police, which it is not.
Even in your example above you emphasized that the rifles were being supplied to gangs in Ecat config. Personally I am more concerned about rifles vs no rifles being supplied to people who shouldnt have them, than whether some one who shouldnt have a rifle has an Acat or Ecat
Not many as you can seeQuote:
I haven't waded through the 6 pages of replies but is there anyone who supports this new way of thinking apart from me?
Correct. The cat up North who supplied that nutcase with 10 firearms, resulting in 2 deaths of innocent people - 12 months home D, what a sick fucking joke. The other 275000 of us didn't. Your unnamed dealer - what did he get? Did they recycle the same wet bus ticket? If they are going to push for something to be done, decent sentencing would be the first thing to look at. Making more laws for criminals to also ignore is taking the piss quite frankly. Mind you, this is the "100kmh = safe, 104kmh = deeply unsafe'' kind of thinking that seems ingrained in Bullshit CastleQuote:
I'm all for tougher laws around firearms and firearms related offences. It is however a complex machine involving a lot a working parts and government departments don't often get that right.
Unfortunately there are some in Police who are hell bent on getting rid of AR rifles and they will keep trying it on until they succeed, we also now have a govt who wants to let criminals out of prison early as apparently we are locking to many up and oh it costs a lot to keep them there (and the public safe) which is why we won’t see decent sentences handed out for gun crimes. That guy up north who let that unhinged bloke use his licence and trade me account to buys guns should have been done for manslaugther.
The govt and police are to scared to face the real issues but still want to been seen to be doing something, like attacking the mostly law abiding FAL holders.
Just like they bang on about the road toll being so high, so put cops and speed cameras all down the Waikato express way tobping people for doing 110kph amd do absolutely nothing about the absolutely atrocious drivers who shouldn't be allowed to drive, but they don't speed so never get pulled over.
Also lowering the drink driving limit whilst giving people back their licenses after 8 or 9 drink driving convictions when they are 3 times over the limit.
I think we would all like to see tougher sentences and the bad people with firearms be delt with, but most of don't see how these new rules do anything other than punish the good guys, when the Police should try harder to get the bad eggs.
The UK had their firearms rules toughened up after a few events that could have easily been prevented had the Police actually done their job and in one case were given multiple tip offs about the guy being a lunatic.
I was bought up to respect the Police and authority, but over time I've slowly lost that respect after seeing them going after the low hanging fruit and ignoring the people out their doing the real damage.
I was explaining this to my wife who has no real interest in firearms. I simplified it for her and the convo went something like....
Wife: so your rifle is legal and your allowed it.
Me: yes
W: But if you change some parts you are not allowed it.
M:right
W: But if you try to buy a part from overseas that is already on your rifle, not one of the illegal parts, you are not allowed to .
M:no
W: Even if you already have that part?
M: Yes
W: and you are allowed that part....
M: Yes
W: ....and that part wont make it illegal
M: No
W: (after looking at me for a moment to gauge if I was taking the piss) ........ Well thats just stupid.
M: yes
Your entire argument falls over with your basic assumptions. Government have told Police that the laws are not changing, the laws they already have are sufficient, and that they need to get on with policing those laws that they have generally failed to police. They have been told to get out and deal with the criminal element. They were also told to have meaningful consultation with licensed firearm owners, which they just finished playing inadequate lip service to. So no, Police are not listening to the directives of government and are showing utter contempt for government, the courts, licensed firearm owners and dealers.
@gadgetman - you've nailed it. And the police miss the fact that their actions cost them the respect and goodwill of a heck of a lot of good people.
Meanwhile, gangs or people of that like, don't obey laws. It's there whole motto.
So the genuine people are the only ones getting it in the neck, what good is that...
The whole thumbhole stock thing is a fucken joke. I'd like an AR but there fucken ugly with the stupid stock, and it's only to make some dreamer think it looks less dangerous, who the fuck thought of that. None of these clowns are practical, or have half a brain between the lot of them.
Got a PM from a community member pointing out that certainly wasn't the purpose of the amendment.
The purpose of the amendment was outlined as:
Purpose
The aim of the Bill is to amend the Arms Act 1983 (the Act) to:
amend the definition of military style semi-automatic firearm (MSSA);
enable regulations to be made declaring a firearm or type of firearm to be an MSSA, and to define or describe features of a firearm that is an MSSA;
provide for an appeal process to the District Court to apply when a firearms owner disagrees with a classification of a firearm as an MSSA; and
place restrictions on the importation of airguns that look like real pistols, MSSAs, or restricted weapons [1] .
No mention of reducing MSSA numbers.
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/bill...rms-and-import
"If you have half a mind to join railways, go ahead, that's all you need, oh, and a good strong back for lifting things. Here at Tea shed station we lift anything thats not nailed down......" Thats a quote from the Mcphail and Gadsby RECORD. (Yes they did an LP way back when.....)
NO ,
This stuff is driven & owned by the Police Head shed , they have been pushing this and other stuff as well , & are selling it to the beat cops , simply by repeating thier anti-gun agenda ( say it long enough & loud enough & it seems to be RIGHT ) , and the inexperienced , ie new cops believe them .
To me the NZ Police has been in physical & moral decline for at least the last 15-20yrs , they standards that recuits have to meet have been lowered ,
1) They lowered the size/height requeried ( ie they did not want hobbits/dwarfs etc ) , so short people could join .
2 ) They meraged the Traffic Officers into the Police , the Traffic , had different/lower entry stds .
3 ) They started recuiting directly from overseas
4 ) They changed the vetting stds for having previous criminal convictions/blackmarks ( you use to have to be squerky clean to get in )
So IF you think our Police force is getting better , than it once was in the past , you are delusional , this trend will continue , its getting away from a true NZ Police Force , and becoming a weird international force , as we have senior people from overseas , that are changing NZ into a mini version of the country they left , countries that have a little to no real freedom .
And I am wondering IF anyone offer than me has noticed IT ,
Unrelated , BUT .
My farmer mate , gets stopped outside his house in town at 0430 hrs , on his way to his farm , ask for licence , hasnt got it on him , so go back into house & gets it , they look at it , run it thru the computer , IT tells them he has NO licence due to the fact he is DEAD .
My mate says he is plainly NOT dead , and says he will get his passport to prove he is who he says he is , they look at it & say he has NO car licence according to the Police computer , and as such if they catch him driving , they will arrest him .
They have already taken his keys off him , there is now 2 cop cars & 4 cops stopping him from going to work on his farm .
My mates getting very annoyed , and has no more time to waste with them , so just gets his wife to drive him to the farm .
This is on the weekend , so when he gets back later in the day , he calls his lawyer for advice , has her do a letter to Police advising IF he gets arrested , he will be taking legal action against them , because he is NOT Dead , and thats the reason his licence has been revoked , it would seem logical and self evident at this stage , that by being alive & talking to them he is NOT dead , you would think right , NO .
They will still arrest him if they catch him , because has No car licence due to him being DEAD , he gets another lift to work , its still weekend .
Lawyer gos to see Police on Monday to sort it out .
Now , mate as good as I am , I could not dream that sh&^ up , thats another level of craziness right there .
This shows a level of arrogance , illogical & studipness that is staggering , I still cannot believe it .
But again and sadly I do
I had a young copper inspect my endorsed firearms get all snotty cause I had not welded or chemset the bolts holding the safe to the floor. Was all set to seize my stuff and muttering I should have known better etc etc till II suggested it might not matter considering in order to unbolt the bolts they would have had to open the safe to access them..............or did he think the crims might want to steal my safe too.
FFS
excellent. I bet he finished up pretty quickly after that!
Maybe the young cop was told by the senior staff that they must be bolted and welded, or chemset because it says in the rules that it "may be used", and they for whatever read that as it had to be done.
Strange shit happens where people are told something only to find out its wrong.
You could always join and do the job that they do. Im sure its harder to do than you think it is.
I was waiting at the arms office for a license renewal and was behind a gent asking how to secure his new safe in his new (to be built) house. Officer was reading the "rules" regarding chem set etc when I piped up and asked "Have you poured the concrete for the wall yet?" He said "No". So I suggested that it could be a good idea to fit some large U bolts into the concrete around the reinforcing and hold it on place by bassing it through the boxing and bolting it in place to the boxing. The the officer asked "How would you chem set it?" to which I replied "Why would you? The only way to remove a U bolt would be to destroy the wall as the bolt passes through the core structure." I then suggested the best time to fit any fastening for attaching a safe is at the building stage rather than retro fit it later. Also suggested it would be a damn sight stronger than any chemset etc. Also suggested to run internal trunking inside the concrete for a power socket inside the cabinet and for alarm cables for a door sensor while you were at it. Cop looked at me like I was some sort of guru. I made some remark about it being simple common sense and all it took was a little fore thought.
I have sent the following email to Stuart Nash at stuart.nash@parliament.govt.nz and
stuart.nashmp@parliament.govt.nz
Titled “NZ Police making their own laws”.
I encourage everyone else to either copy this email and send it as your own or write something yourself and send it to our minister of police letting him know this is unacceptable.
Dear Minister of Police,
On Thursday morning the firearms community was made aware of a new NZ Police protocol/policy on preventing the legal importation of legal firearms parts by law abiding firearms owners.
If you are unaware of what protocol I am referring to please see the attached images.
This change is illegal. There is no law preventing the legal importation of firearms parts for semi-automatic firearms that are not specifically going to be fitted to an E-category firearms.
The law requires import permits for parts that are ONLY able to be fitted to a semi-automatic firearms AND have one of the following features; collapsible stock, high capacity magazine, bayonet lug, freestanding pistol grip or a flash suppressor, OR if the part is specifically imported to be fitted to an E-category firearms. Firearms licence holders are fit and proper people therefore should be trusted that if the part is intended for use on a restricted firearms they will apply for an import permit for that part.
Please note that parts that have a collapsible stock, high capacity magazine, bayonet lug, freestanding pistol grip or a flash suppressor, there are many different rifles that these parts can be fitted to that are not semi-automatic firearms so majority of these parts are not inherently E-category firearms parts.
As the minister of police and a member of the current government you have an obligation to prevent the mistreatment of law abiding citizens and have a duty of prevent firearms owners being mistreated. You also have a duty to ensure that the NZ Police are policing the law, not making their own law to police, this is not legal!
As you are now informed on how the NZ Police are not correctly policing the law and are stepping outside the duties they hold I expect that you will take the appropriate action to prevent the further exploitation of law abiding firearms owners.
Should you seek further information on what legally requires an import permit and what parts do not require such permits please refer to the Arms Act 1983 Section 16.
I look forward to hearing what action you are going to take to redress this issue.
Kind Regards,
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...7bfc09a97d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...9dd8281467.jpg
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thats wheely onto it. I shall send one also.
Good work @wheels , just the info needed to make a sensible request to the Minister, who will be hearing from me shortly (along with my local MP's).
Could this also be processed through a formal complaint to the Independent Police Conduct Authority? Independent of both Police and government sounds like a good thing!
https://www.ipca.govt.nz/
gentlemen
just idly cruising my new old urepowereds PC memory and bugger me heres this wee gem
high cort of NZ
palmerston nth registry
CIV2009-454-473
JUDGEMENT OF MALLON J
R LICOLN VS NZ POLICE
cast featuring in his oscar winning role GUNDOC
BRING IT UP AND PAY VERY CAREFUL ATTENTION TO PARA 10 concerning case law practical pistol shooting institute of NZvs commissioner of police
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d27ee0519f.png
Got this back from Stuart Nash’s office this morning. I recommend bombarding his office with more emails so he understands that we won’t put up with being pushed around by police making their own rules.
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In situations like this that impact all f/a licence holders, emotive rubbish has no place. Save it for the retarded rugby or dog threads.
A 5 second search like ‘IPCA finds against police’ will show you are completely wrong.
Some of you guys need to get your emotions under control. You embarrass yourselves and other licence holders by extension by some of the content you post.
@Proudkiwi,
Good point re being too dismissive of the powers that be.
It is however difficult to confidently assert that IPCA is independent of Police based on it making findings against Police. Besides NZ being a small place, the IPCA itself does not investigate complaints but delegates investigations to serving cops, cop investigating cop.
Notwithstanding this, IPCA's lack of independence while unhelpful clearly does not necessarily impact on IPCA's sincerity.
Is there something not quite right about putting the fox in the henhouse to count the chickens? :wtfsmilie:
Interesting.
Tell me, how long did you serve in the police or on the authority?
@Proudkiwi
Yeah, nah, you show us yours first. Really?
Well I didnt serve on the authority but I certainly investigated other cops during my time.
Your posts come across as superficial to anyone that actually has any experience. Copy and pasting at its finest.
Feel free to not quote or reference my posts because I really don’t need the ‘support’
Back to my main point.
Rubbish/uninformed/emotive posts, exemplified by the ones above from JWB and Cordite embarrass us all. Please stop.