That was a very interesting read Aly, thanks for sharing.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Aly
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That was a very interesting read Aly, thanks for sharing.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Aly
We are lead by some so blind
DOC knows best. The buffer zone on streams have recently been removed so they can sow directly into them now. I noted a few years ago that DOC had began to refer to trout as the possums of the waterways.
This was about the time DOC had applied for a resource consent to use the poison Rotenone to kill trout in the Wellington Catchment.
Spectacular Aly !!! +1 around finding the alternatives. The easy route is the easy route sometimes, So I guess we need to apply pressure to find out how to get DOC out of their rut. I know there was significant pressure on ARC to change after instances of secondary poisoning for cholecalciferol and being too close to residential properties that was specifically mentioned by the head ranger up at Arataki. Hence they moved to Brodificoum that has an antidote. I think in a similar way we need to continue to make the current solution untenable.
It needs to be about dislodging the incumbent solution, and finding a better overall solution and future for our parks...
Attachment 29610
Time to be frightened when they remove the buffer zones from around our waterways.
I think the buffer zones are imaginary anyway.
You are right 'Dundee' when we investigated the rivers after a drop even the ones with Buffer Zones we always found 1080 pellets in them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundee
But we still regard the removal of 'Buffer Zones' from around catchments from which water supplies are drawn as a rather sinister new development. About 4 % of all streams sampled contain more than the maximum allowable dose of 1080 in them.
Its a sort of a lottery for anyone living close to a drop zone whether you get a shot of 1080 or not.
They don't exist - correct Dundee. just look at the provided GPS data points for overflight with a overlay of waterways on Google and you'll see tributary and small stream as well as many larger ones in the paths of over flight. We all know how the monsoon delivery system works - spring and sling as the chopper pilots refer to it (or at least my mate who is now flying up on the oil rigs in the UK did). 100m to the edge of the target zone is minimal margin area as has been proven over the years.
I know DOC and E-pro will say that video of pellets in the waterways have been planted there, but who provides oversight of this program at a Governmental level DOC or MOH anyway? surely they need to provide proof as to steps taken to mitigate effects etc...for reviews of funding, resource consents and the like. I know if I did something on my land I'd be up the wazoo with red tape and inspections...
Buffer zones will mean bugger all to migratory aquatic species that forage en-route in the waterways eating tasty items such as snails, koura and other aquatic items, and one good downpour can relocate fish kilometers down stream not to mention their own migratory patterns.
You're right CD. What is happening and unrecognised by DoC and the Animal Health Board aka TB Free NZ and the Regional Councils which issue the poison consents is that the food chain ,especially the upper tiers which include predatory birds such as Morepork, Heron, Kingfisher, kaka, Kea, Weka, Falcon, Harrier, Pukeko, Blue and Grey ducks, all normally have to work quite hard for their prey / tucker-- Prey food such as rats, mice, nymphs and worms and insects.
What happens when 1080 is dropped in their environment is the rapid creation of a banquet of poisonous tucker, half dead or dead, very easy to catch and then eat. There is absolutely zero protection for these precious non target creatures to prevent them from consuming and dying from poisoned natural foods.
The removal of buffer zones virtually guarantees that the aquatic parts of the eco-system are condemned to the same poisonous exposure as the dry land and forest dwelling species.
The aftermath of polluted and toxic waste on land and in waterways is guaranteed and lasts many months.
Responsible management? I think not.
In the long run, trapping is safer and efficient and cheaper with many social benefits.
Woody the ears of officialdom are deaf and its eyes are blind. It will take a human death before any government departments will adopt different views.
Any one know where the bloody factory is or is that Top Secret?
Wanganui,Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundee
Animal Control Products
408 Heads Road
Castlecliff 4501
Down towards the Heads. I have brought cyanide there often enough over the years.
We have had a human death Rushy. But for a long time it was denied by the Government agency. I have a copy of the medical report and the family has the death certificate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushy
The poison 1080 is manufactured in the USA by Tull Chemical Co of Alabama USA and imported by Animal Control products Ltd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundee
Attachment 29625Despite the Medical Report and the Death Certificate many Government Agencies still claim there has never been a death from 1080 poisoning in NZ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushy
It suits them to claim there has never been a death but in doing so they deny the truth and cause the victims family a lot of grief.
We should not be surprised they act this way as many of the facts surrounding 1080 are very unpalatable and the urge to suppress them is growing greater day by day.
unaware.
well that says a lot about them as a whole doesn't it.
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They were informed many times and even now Government Agencies still claim there has never been a death. Have a look at some of the Web Sites. Waikato Regional Council one of the biggest spreaders of1080 in NZ claims on their website that nobody has ever died of 1080.Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
There are other cases as well of multiple organ failure leading to death.
Did his wife poison him? Or was it his baited jam do you think?
"Does 1080 have any effect on human health?
There have been no recorded cases of 1080 causing harm to human health, let alone
any deaths of humans due to 1080 poisoning. Long-term, low-level exposure is not
harmful – tea drinkers consume 1080 at about 1.5 times the drinking water limit with
every cup of ordinary tea. All over the world millions of people have been regularly
consuming 1080 for centuries with no discernible ill effects."
This is a paragraph sourced from: 1080 Frequently Asked Questions | Forest and Bird
Kinda makes me wanna vom with all the dishonesty.... if the U.S.A Government openly acknowledges multiple human deaths from 1080, what forest and bird are trying to spread in their little brochures of sunshine and daisies is almost criminally untrue. Actually I'm pretty sure they can be taken to court for spreading misinformation like that, with the legalities against misrepresentation/dishonesty/fraud etc
Hi Gibo, Baited jam was commonly used in poisoning operations then. No evidence or suggestion otherwise that he was murdered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibo
What people on this earth are regularly "consuming" 1080???? They make it sound like a delicacy!
Also "for centuries" when what I know 1080 has only been used as a compound poison since, like, the 1930s?? A century hasn't even passed since then.
Attachment 29634
There are other cases and we documented them all and presented them as a submission in the 2007 ERMA review on 1080 poison.
DOC, Animal Health Board, and Regional Council representatives were present.
I think they are referring to tea drinkers there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aly
The sentence goes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Moutere
"All over the world millions of people have been regularly consuming 1080 for centuries with no discernible ill effects."
If they were talking about tea, not sure what tea they're drinking.
*edit: their information about tea is wrong here too, that fact is wrong. While tea is more "hydrating" than water (and only some particular tea such as Green Leaf because a lot of tea has caffeine which dehydrates you) the amount of water is still the same, and unless that "cup" that they're drinking from is about 1.5 litres then no..... most tea consumers aren't over hydrating themselves..... *
Is Forest and Bird run by 10 year olds who make up their own facts or something?
Thanks Scribe and Cambo for that info.
The way Forest and Bird writes it, and sells this information as being sourced from DOC, almost makes it sound like they are confidently insinuating it is perfectly fine for a person to eat a 1080 bait - and suffer nothing. Especially by making it sound like humans have been consuming it for centuries. Which contradicts what DOC warns, but if these are the people who are the pro-1080 group then all it takes is one gullible New Zealander to follow and attempt to eat it to prove a point. Or enter a 1080 zone with their young children, thinking it would be completely harmless for them should they pick it up.
So I've never looked into Forest and Bird before, but now I'm actually thoroughly disturbed by them.
Kevin Hackwell, Forest and Birds head honco has been guilty of holding up a bag of salt and vinegar chips the inference is that 1080 is no more dangerous than the salt and vinegar in the chip packet. Children were present at this meeting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aly
We always know when a drop is coming. It is telegraphed by stories in the press written by Forest and Bird. These series of stories often declare that the number of birds being eaten by possums and rats is increasing dramatically and calling upon DOC to do something about it.
You might have lost me there Aly.
They're referring to people having been drinking tea for centuries, tea that supposedly contains flouroacetate.
A claim that I would like proven as fact or fiction as I've heard this one before too.
Moutere, I would be more interested in seeing how flouroacetate turns in Salt and Vinegar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moutere
I can't seem to find any information on it in tea, but I do find information on how fluroacetate in plants was problematic in livestock in Australia because it kept killing of significant amounts of herds. I highly doubt humans could really consume the same plants if it's killing off livestock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moutere
Which regardless would still make their claims redundant because people are not putting 1080 compound in their tea.
Which they are insinuating.
And having tea with fluroacetate plant in it would have to be rather diluted with a lot of water.
Overall I guess my point is that they are very, very misleading with their statements.
Ha, I think we can both safely say he is clutching a straws on that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scribe
I'm going to look at fluroacetate in tea to see what I can find.
There is a difference between sodium monofluroacetate compound and fluroacetate in plants....
So far all the headlines that are coming up are saying this is bull, though.
Yes, 1080 is a synthesised version of flouroacetate, which is claimed to be in tea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aly
The comparison to tea is in the context of minimum water quality standards regarding 1080. Not the suggestion that there is 1080 in tea. I agree that one sentence could be worded better.
"And on the issue of 1080 being naturally-occurring, plants produce fluoroacetic acid, but manufactured 1080 is sodium monofluoroacetate. Mr Eason stated in April 2002 that "Anyone comparing 1080 poison with the naturally-occurring substance is stupid.""
^This pretty much sums up what I've found.
Science Clarified
What's found in tea leaves in nowhere near the considered toxic amount, it's incredibly low-concentrate, naturally occurring acid found in point .trillionth amounts.
It's not like you're taking a bait and dunking it in your morning Earl Grey like a sugar cube :wtfsmilie:
Oh I know that, I'm saying that 1080 compound is a concentrated amount where a bait which is placed into the New Zealand environment is of certain toxicity, whereas naturally occurring it isn't a compound.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moutere
More from F&G...
Tests reveal risk in 1080-zone trout | Stuff.co.nz
The poison found in nature is potassium fluoroacetate, which has a bitter taste which is a natural deterrent to browsing animals.
The poison used in compound 1080 is sodium monofluoroacetate which is a manufactured compound and designed to be almost tasteless and which was originally registered as an insecticide in the UK. However, authorities recognised the extreme potency and danger to users, and the fact that is could be readily taken up through the root / transpiration systems of plants, and was proven to be capable of poisoning sap sucking insects feeding on the sap of those plants feeding on the underside of leaves. It was subsequently banned from use there.
While it is commonly described as a vertebrate poison by applicants such as DoC and the Animal Health Board it is not generally recognised (some say deliberately) by permit issuing authorities or DoC or the AHB that it is an extremely lethal insecticide as well. Scientist Mike Meads was a world renowned specialist in invertebrates and both he and Notman pointed out the potential dangers and risks of poisoning the base of the environmental food chain in NZ by use of 1080. Both of them lost their jobs very soon after producing their research. DoC actively sought to discredit Meads and refused to publish his peer reviewed findings. DoC has put very minimal effort into further investigation of the implications of 1080 effects on the over all structure of forest biomass since the ERMA review in 2007 where ESPC (now NZWBM) along with several other submitters provided Mead's and Notman's science as evidence. The ERMA review (EPA) could not ignore this evidence but while recommending several courses of further research, is actually powerless to ensure such research is carried out. Another specialist toxicology professor from Victoria University described the "official" effort to find the potential dangers (for instance the long term dangers such as effects on DNA in pregnant women) as being equivalent to using a large meshed snapper net to try to catch a sprat. In other words, the correct protocols and resources for investigation did not exist or were not being applied in NZ. That scientists interview can be seen on the DVD "A Shadow of Doubt".
Very many persons in NZ and worldwide are extremely concerned at the NZ government's apparent tendency to suppress information and research effort that might reveal the potential long term harm caused by 1080 use.
Incidentally; can anyone on here tell me in detail what the over all diet is of Keruru. I have watched these birds feeding voraciously on kowhai leaves and my dogs have pointed them on the ground in forests while deer stalking or pheasant hunting. (Kaka also must have a very strong scent. My dogs will identify Kaka in trees from several hundred metres distance.) I assume Keruru are feeding on the ground, on fallen berries, but I have no proof of their ground feeding diet. Perhaps they also feed on fallen leaves, other vegetation , or even worms and insects? Could somebody enlighten me please.
Much of a pigeons water needs are provided by water trapped in the forks of trees. (These water traps also trap 1080 pellets with fatal results for these and other birds)
I have noticed over the years that in some areas pigeons are forced to come down to the forest floor to drink and bathe. I am sure they avoid doing this as much as possible as they are so awkward and vulnerable on the ground in a forest.
In saying that they will graze in open paddocks on the Coromandel where they must feel safe. I suspect they will be after clover.
That's one bird that seems to thrive on the coast considering all the local and regular poisoning. No idea why.
There are trees in kowhitirangi that you can count literally hundreds in, when they are budding.
Anyone one heard about the Glenorchy poison.
Smashed an already under threat whitetail herd.
Its gotta stop. You see ads in our paper here with "Save our birds" heading all the poison notifications in local notices and papers. Kids at school are being desensitized to 1080 as well.
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