Thread: Cost of firearms deaths

I didn’t see any negativity toward licensed firearms owners in the article. In fact the only thing I struggled with was how anyone can assign a value to a balance of life not lived. To me so very much of that equation has to be pure conjecture as each and everyone of us is entirely different from the next.

I mean I might look at this very differently than most, but my experience is that many suicides are people looking for attention that went a little too far. Sure, some of them are very definitely deliberate acts. Some people just don't want to be here anymore, who are we to take away their agency and right to decide for themselves? My argument is a little more nuanced than a few sentences although. I think one of the issues we face is that society seems to place more emphasis on one type/method/reason of death than another one. So if we look at things statistically (2019 figures https://figure.nz/chart/jCWcErSzzHQ9...3slqVIuXEUnpCx ) the things that we talk about the most are not the things that provide the highest mortality. This has always made little sense to me because if the fundamental argument for saving unnecessary death in a population is paramount then we are all focusing on the wrong things.

How can you assign a positive value to a life 'not lived' when it belonged to a person with a negative attitude who chose to take their own life? Had they lived, they probably would have been a cost to society anyway. A harsh attitude, I know, but also a probable truth. I suspect those who come up with all the research also fall on the debit side of the cost analysis (cost v. benefit) register.

Originally Posted by MB

But what is the cause of the problems that need mental health services?

Stressing about current and impending firearms laws and restrictions?

Originally Posted by Growlybear

RNZ, huh? Don't worry about it. Only about a dozen people listen to them, shrinking by the day.

It was on TV1 this morning.
If you read it, it makes sense, but media will highlight what catch's people's attention.
And it worked, got all of you hook line and sinker.
But it you read it and dissect it a bit it isn't too bad.
The cost of the balance of life is a bit different, but society and business today do not seem to value anything.
An example is staff churn.
Has a tremendous cost, both dollars and human/individual cost but business buries its head in the sand and say we are no worse than benchmark.

There is the issue where GPs are required by law to report LFAOs that could be a danger to themselves and others, and how this can lead people who really need help to not seek it for fear of the police removingvtheir firearms. Seeking help through a dark patch should be absolutely encouraged, no strings attached.

Suicide has always been a taboo topic, its almost like its a disease that youll catch.

Originally Posted by gundoc

How can you assign a positive value to a life 'not lived' when it belonged to a person with a negative attitude who chose to take their own life? Had they lived, they probably would have been a cost to society anyway. A harsh attitude, I know, but also a probable truth. I suspect those who come up with all the research also fall on the debit side of the cost analysis (cost v. benefit) register.

A fair point

From what I learned way back looking at Traffic Design, the idea of costing lives was twofold
1- lives saved by improved safety features could be fed back in to the cost/benefit analysis to price the relative worth of different options on roading improvements
2 - similarly minutes saved in improvements could be calculated out as a saving ie a surgeon will be paying x amount of tax while working so a benefit to the govt, sitting in traffic means not working so a cost

Back then (about 25 years ago) the value was total earnings averaged over a lifetime and was around 2 million per person, from memory

I'm sure an actuary will be able to give a more accurate figure if there are any out there...

Originally Posted by 308

Shit parenting?

I’ve had two mates kill themselves, both causes were female related. One planned and learnt how to kill yourself with a .22, without damaging you’re face The seconds only comment was “ don’t thing your second marriage will be better than your first” he’d lost his first wife in his early 60s, once again .22.
You had know idea what the had on their mind as is with most men.

Originally Posted by erniec

It was on TV1 this morning.
If you read it, it makes sense, but media will highlight what catch's people's attention.
And it worked, got all of you hook line and sinker.
But it you read it and dissect it a bit it isn't too bad.
The cost of the balance of life is a bit different, but society and business today do not seem to value anything.
An example is staff churn.
Has a tremendous cost, both dollars and human/individual cost but business buries its head in the sand and say we are no worse than benchmark.

I was just about to write this. The report may indeed look benign but that was not the bullet point message this morning on the TV and the researcher involved albeit relatively mild, did not disagree with them nor give positive takes on it.
The line was firearms cost money in the hospital system and we should make sure it doesn't get worse ie easier to get firearms. Anytime anyone suggests any sort of push back on any of the regulations and laws brought in after the mosque tragedy is just letting the same thing happen

Originally Posted by Maca49

I’ve had two mates kill themselves, both causes were female related. One planned and learnt how to kill yourself with a .22, without damaging you’re face The seconds only comment was “ don’t thing your second marriage will be better than your first” he’d lost his first wife in his early 60s, once again .22.
You had know idea what the had on their mind as is with most men.

Yeah I've been close to 3 guys who did it
2 of them were of the "They'll be sorry when I'm gone" sort of bullshit that I have no sympathy for but one guy who was the artistic sensitive type watched his mother die of cancer and the colour just drained out of his world
Pure despair
That one I have sympathy for

Of the first two, one did it to get back at his g/f cos she dumped him - 14 year old logic but that is a shit thing to inflict on that girl

The male brain doesn't mature as quick as the female brain, that's for sure


I find a lot of fucked up people come partly from not being wanted and valued by their parents, esp the serial shagger blokes who have 12 kids by 5 mums and pay no child support at all

But then I believe that some people shouldn't breed and I place myself firmly on that list

Mate of mine went so far as to hand in his firearms because he knew he was in such a dark place.

Not that long after he made a slamfire shotgun out of plumbing equipment (was a plumber) and that was that. I don't know exactly what help he had accessed, he was definitely in the mental health system by the end. But even then he made that decision and I believe he would have found a way regardless.

Close mates didn't even know how bad it was until after the fact.

Originally Posted by Preacher

Mate of mine went so far as to hand in his firearms because he knew he was in such a dark place.

Not that long after he made a slamfire shotgun out of plumbing equipment (was a plumber) and that was that. I don't know exactly what help he had accessed, he was definitely in the mental health system by the end. But even then he made that decision and I believe he would have found a way regardless.

Close mates didn't even know how bad it was until after the fact.

Love your signature

Originally Posted by gundoc

How can you assign a positive value to a life 'not lived' when it belonged to a person with a negative attitude who chose to take their own life? Had they lived, they probably would have been a cost to society anyway. A harsh attitude, I know, but also a probable truth. I suspect those who come up with all the research also fall on the debit side of the cost analysis (cost v. benefit) register.

Sorry. I just cant comprehend that people think like this.

Originally Posted by MB

But what is the cause of the problems that need mental health services?

Going through the difficulties with this at this very moment. We do not have a Mental health service any longer. Those that seriously need it, have nowhere to go. How can the hospital discharge a patient that had spent 6 months in compulsory mental health treatment, to the street in a wheelchair to no fixed abode because every family member has trespassed her. The mother cannot get information because of patient confidentiality. Mental health cannot help because the patient hasn't requested their help. She is fucked up with drugs and can't make a fit decision. But they will continue to give her prescription medication which she overdoses on and has now been trespassed from the hospital.
It's becoming a situation that the family need to medication to put up with the drama going on.
The system is F CKED

I honestly believe the idea that cannabis should be legalized is wrong, it is the gateway to further drug abuse for some.