That's pretty insulting implying our staff, who most hold their own FAL, would do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
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That's pretty insulting implying our staff, who most hold their own FAL, would do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
I sold an air rifle on trade me a while ago, I stated "Pick up only" as I didn't want postage hassles but didn't tick the appropriate box. The winner demanded I send it and he deemed that a webcam photo of him holding his drivers licence was enough proof of age. I wasn't sure as there is no proof that it wasn't a random person and was in the process of checking with the arms officer weather a permit was required. Within 2 days TM was on the phone to me demanding that I complete the trade, they wouldn't listen to reason until I told them that all my calls are recorded and I'll be emailing the police with the recording and a statement that they are pushing FA sales without following procedure. Back then even the AO didn't have a firm answer weather or not a permit was required for an air rifle purchase.Quote:
Originally Posted by No.3
Almost a moot point now that it is digital. But in saying that I agree wholeheartedly with you that 99.9% of staff are perfectly fine and would never dream of doing that and that the security in the store will normally be pretty good now.....but that one person is all it takes and that one person may not even need to be staff member in some of the smaller businesses I saw. Also it would not be out of the possibility for said paperwork to be stolen in a ram raid...digital in that case is more secure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coop
All you need is a legal verification that they are over 18. A police form can be used for that and I have done that in the past. Make sure the DOB is on it and the form if ID that is used (usually NZDL or passport) However a photocopy of their ID, signed by a JP or sworn officer is (or used to be) acceptable too. What you are looking for is proof that they are over 18. The officer or JP signing it is stating that the buyer has proven to them (on your behalf) that they are over 18. The actual piece of paper that is signed must then be posted to you. That way you can see the stamp and signature is real and not a scanned copy. A scan and email is not acceptable as these are easy to alter digitally and impossible for you to verify they are real. If you have further doubts you are still entitled to refuse to complete the transaction and refund the money paid.Quote:
Originally Posted by No good names left
It would be interesting to split out pistols as a separate category - excluding cut down firearms. If we could then see how many of the pistols police recovered, then see how many of those were stolen or fenced by a license holder - the difference would imply the number coming in via freight - or on fishing boats etc. My instinct is that a vast majority of pistols in circulation with gangs would be illegal imports. Why would a gang bother to conceal and import a semi shotgun when they can access them here? On the other hand a pistol is a scarce commodity. And for most of us law abiding people - including police - I'm guessing that bumping in to a crim with a concealed pistol is a far more dangerous and likely thing than seeing one wandering around with a semi shotgun? I accept that for police doing search warrants etc - the risk of running into an illegal MSSA or similar is most concerning, whereas for many it would be the risk of someone pulling out a pistol - or knife. I saw in the paper that a gang member recently prosecuted in Rotorua said he would buy 100 9mm pistols the same as the sample he was shown.....
Begs the question on how good their IT security is. The average kiwi small/medium business leaves a lot to be desired, though most cannot be blamed as they get someone else in to do it. imho a paper book system would be far more secure than what NZ SMBs can acheive.Quote:
Originally Posted by timattalon
I never stated WHICH large retail store...but if the shoe fits and you feel guilty..well thats your issue then isnt it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Coop
are you 100% confident ALL of the staff in ALL of the franchise stores are above reproach,dont have drug habits or gambling debts??? are you 100% positive none of your franchise owners dont have gang connections??? if you are I have a bridge to sell you.
AND you will note I HAVE NOT MENTIONED your store by name....seems those who do get banned quick smartly.
and if moderators have an issue with this..I'm more than happy to go on record to them with names and details...will follow that up with police if you really want to push issue...
your call @Coop
There was one article recently that showed a make and model of pistol recovered by Police that's only been made in the last few years - it would stand to reason that it would have to be on the register if it was a legal import but the details were not in the article. I can't find it now, which is a little annoying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Northkiwi
I add a line to anything I sell online now (auction or otherwise) that states that Police and age requirements must be met. Reason for that is that the sellers terms and conditions listed in the auction description are the legal 'sellers terms of sale' and if there's an issue that goes to legal side it's there in black and white not buried in the site terms and conditions. Thats after the drama my mate had with his auction sale...Quote:
Originally Posted by No good names left
@vulcannz NZ SMBs can achieve digital security. To access my digital record they would have to steal the computer which is much heavier than the book and old enough to look like its worthless. Digital does not mean online. I am not sure what the 'not connected to the internet' term is but I believe airgapped might be close. That is not to say other companies do the same. Larger ones are probably interconnected but also have the budget for more expensive / extensive digital security. But SMBs without that budget do not require a great deal of computing power to operate a relatively simple data spreadsheet, though I would suggest laptops are not ideal- even old ones are easily stolen, and two, if they shit themselves it becomes unrecoverable. But the AO was quite adamant that as long as the info is retained and accessible when needed he is happy. (And by accessible- I give him hard copy on paper if he asks...)Quote:
Originally Posted by vulcannz
My call do to what exactly? You're clearly being antagonising but I'm not gonna take the bait. Have fun with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
Where ever you have people involved there is always greed & temptation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coop
Also remember it wasn’t that long ago you had the owner of a H&F store involved in drug dealing!
Please dont take any offence at this remark as that is not the intention. I think it perfectly reasonable to accept that in certain situations staff, or more likely even owners of businesses could be 'pressured' sufficiently to release details / information from their records. As could Govt employees and anyone with access to data basesQuote:
Originally Posted by Coop
Why not? The ATF will help as well as European manufacturers/Agencies. https://www.cdpp.gov.au/case-reports...g-machine-guns https://www.news.com.au/entertainmen...dc870258fadfefQuote:
Originally Posted by vulcannz
Also interesting https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-...tralia/6483762
That is still not the supplier though. If the NZP rocked up to a European supplier and said "tell me who you sold xxx too" they'd politely tell the NZP to eff off. NZP have no authority there, and most western countries have privacy laws that limit the sharing of such information except with local law enforcement AND in most cases would require some sort of court order or warrant - and that would likely need indications of a crime being committed in the originating country.Quote:
Originally Posted by 300CALMAN
Releasing of such information could expose suppliers to privacy lawsuits.
The exception to that rule would be the example you've posted above, where it is likely a crime has been committed on the other end - in that case exporting machine guns probably requires a special permit. So the ATF would naturally have been interested.
It’s not necessarily the NZP contacting them directly, it could be done indirectly through INTERPOL from within that country who have a bit more sway.Quote:
Originally Posted by vulcannz
It all depends on what has actually occurred in order for the manufacturer to be contacted and again will that manufacturer freely divulge that information or will a court order be required.
well you seem to take offence and imply Ive taken aim at your store...... oh dear,it couldnt happen.... yeah right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coop
You will find ITAR makes exporting without correct paperwork a crime for firearms in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by vulcannz
Remind me to raise that with the African warlords and south american dictators next time I see them. Having said that, if they have even heard of ITAR is a moot question if they give a rats arse. It's only the countries where influential people and those with an eye to the next easy meal ticket job that seem to give a crap about the UN.Quote:
Originally Posted by 300CALMAN
There’s an article on the Herald website this morning about a straw buyer subtitled “How gangs get their guns”, but it’s a paywall one so can’t read much
Hit job which tells me the Regulator (NZ Police) are up to no good, no doubt justifying the 500% increase in Fees etc. Look for our friend Cahill to be behind the author.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigar
I disagree. I just finished reading the article. There was one point that annoyed me, the bit where they talked about an AK-47, which would be illegal in NZ as they are fully automatic (even before the 2019 laws).Quote:
Originally Posted by BSA
The new police guy in charge of the register actually sounds reasonable:
The article is mostly about straw buyers, license holders who buy firearms then flick them onto gangs. And mostly about this guy Grond.Quote:
The project is being led by Superintendent Richard Wilson, who concedes that in the past the police have not fulfilled their obligations under the Arms Act as effectively as they should.
...
“The key for police is to make sure that we keep everyone’s details really secure, so the firearms community isn’t targeted,” says Wilson, referring to concerns the national register could fall into the wrong hands. “Because the pressure will come on.”
And interestingly, for a different point of view, the police are expecting once they close the straw buyer loophole they expect the gangs to switch to things like burglaries, ram raiding dealers etc. Not a single mention of fees.
It's a reasonable well written article, not the crap you usually see in stuff - plus it has some interesting and valid points from the police.
My thoughts also.
Now there is a big surprise.....Quote:
Originally Posted by vulcannz
It's a reasonable well written article, not the crap you usually see in stuff - plus it has some interesting and valid points from the police
In The Herald actually but I digress, this article from the BFD blog site covers that article far better than I can explain without writing a novel myself. As I said it is a Hit Piece.
https://thebfd.co.nz/2023/01/16/poli...ed-up-as-news/
I would also recommend Firearms Owners apply some critical thinking, it is an Election year and we are going to be vilified yet again to cover for vast inadequacies by Govt/Police in the criminal sector. This comment from a Firearms Owner I thought very well put.
Joe Grond, quite a distinctive name, 22, labourer, able to afford expensive guns.
Despite my enquires to the Auckland collector fraternity, including dealers this guy is not known.
I find this hard to believe given the "facts" presented in the article.
My opinion is this chicken manure story is a plant from police with no charges being mentioned and it seems there are no back articles mentioning the arrest of Grong from 2019 or 2020.
This story smells as bad as the chicken manure writing.
Note to Angela Brazier, it is high time you stopped this sort of nonsense.
You are the boss you must realise that targeting firearms owners as "criminals in waiting" is and will severely damage any sort of relationship you want with firearms owners
I was going to refrain from commenting, but BSA has opened the gate.
The police have been trying to build the case that all guns in criminal hands come from licensed firearm owners, not from any other source.
I think Nicole Mckee got from Coster an admission that they actually only know where a small proportoo of guns have come from, and they are now trying to say "well - that is where all the guns come from" - and now this article very conveniently is produced.
I read the news very well, and had clearly missed any prior reporting of that case, and it just seemed to convenient in light of recent comments from the police and politicians.
A quick google search will provide some background.
Now - a Joseph Grond did sign a petition for COLFO - so this article could all be true, but WHY was the case previously unreported. The media, for this sort of public interest case would have been all over it. The police would have ensured there was coverage of it.
I read the article, and it didnt read right, in fact it stinks, there is a distinct lack of realism to it, ie lack of dates.
I would hope for the medias credibilty that this article was fact checked first, for me the jory is out - however it is a good plausible "story"
Yeah nah, I still disagree. If you read the article as a whole, it's not that way. If you take a few clips out without context of the rest of the article you can make it look that way, which the bfd have done.
There was also this guy: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/...g-guns-to-gang so Police aren't imagining things.
No right is absolute. But a FAL is like a driving license: if you pass the test and are physically and mentally fit to drive you SHALL be issued a driving license upon application, and if you don't get it, you can take New Zealand Transport Agency, or whatever they are called now, to court.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger 888
The point is, you have the right by default, exceptions prove a right, exceptions do not disprove a right.
Yet another guy that would not have had a FAL if a diligent background check had been conducted.:yuush:Quote:
Originally Posted by vulcannz
Haven't read the article, paywall etc etc.
But the comment about a registry stopping straw buying is pure wishful thinking, there is zero mechanism or even enough manpower to review the firearms licence holders to actually ensure what is registered is actually there. And at the 5yr mark for first renewal or the 10yr mark for subsequent renewals it's just too damn late and few and far between the 240,000 reviews to mean a damn. What it will mean is that the straw buyer thing becomes a case of either the person the gangs are making get the licence knows that they are up for a headbutt and the cost of that is priced into the gang's reimbursement for services rendered or there will be a trend of robberies at the 4.5 year or the 9.5 year mark. That and a quick whip over with a stolen angle grinder removing the numbers and bob's your gender-not-specified relative of questionable origins. Still of the opinion that if the point of the exercise was better regime control that opportunity has already been lost by not putting all semi's onto E-cat instead of doing a confiscation which arguably only recovered a percentage of the fleet. The remainder will not come back out of the ether with these sorts of mad schemes at foot.
How much harder than forging a Drivers Licence would it be to forge a FAL?
Rules are made for the guidance of the wise,the obeyance of the fool!
As fast as the first man writes the law ,the second will find the loopholes.
Had CUDDLES COSTER been a racehorse,I wouldnt be paying out melbourne cup starting fees.
TIS THE OLD DOG WHO WALKS THE FOOTPATH,PUPS RUN ON THE STREET!
and here endeth the lesson from pastor kotuku of the church of the 12guage!!!!!!
Absolutely agree, and as per my post above so does the cop in article...Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnwolf
Quote:
The project is being led by Superintendent Richard Wilson, who concedes that in the past the police have not fulfilled their obligations under the Arms Act as effectively as they should.
That is true, I guess the police are looking at recovered firearms will close the loop in that they will able to identify where they came from. But again how easy is it to grind off a serial number.Quote:
Originally Posted by No.3
If I were the police I would be taking gun sales -> serials -> LFAOs inventories, looking at who owned a lot more weapons than average and doing random audits. The guy above had purchased ~70 firearms - people like that would stand out like a ducks nuts.
There is an opportunity for the police to run it right and make a useful tool. But who the f**k am I kidding...
Unfortunately what these articles never state (and it is not just firearms they do this to) the police do not point out that it is usually the gunshop that brings the situation to the police. Some years ago, one of the casinos came under fire from the media regarding a money laundering operation. With all the various media outlets, NOT ONE OF THEM INCLUDING THE POLICE pointed out that it was ONLY picked up because the casino involved had AML/CFT procedures in place that flagged the operation as suspicious and they bought it to the attention of the Police and assisted with the Police to investigate it.....If it had not been for the Casino doing that, it would never have been identified, and again- thanks to the media- it was painted as the Casinos fault...Another of the straw buyers bought to Police attention was due to the fact he had purchased several identical firearms from the same retailer and that retailer had notified the Police that there was something not quite right there.....Quote:
Originally Posted by vulcannz
I think that comment from Mr Wilson is overly generous as well, if the reports I saw were correct not only were the Police not fulfilling their obligations - they were actively siphoning the funds off for their pet projects that each Policing district was trying to promote. It was seen as a easy low risk source of extra funding, and it bit. Now they are trying to make out it's everyone else's problem but theirs and trying to recover extra funding for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by vulcannz
Exactly, some US states run a 'record book' system that you are responsible for recording all of your transactions in similar to a dealer's logbook, and that must be retained in a secure area with a transfer permit system. Easy for most - a lot more work for others but at least it records every transaction and what you should have without the cost of a central computer and all it's weaknesses and faults. The extra money saved can go into boots on the ground rather than faceless minions with no responsibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by vulcannz
There was something in news a year or two ago about someone on the north shore getting served a warrant and two ARs being found. May have been the guy in question. If any cnut onsells to unlicenced people they deserve what's coming. The only thing that surprised me was the judge handing down such a weak sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by vulcannz
That's going to be tried out I would say. Be interesting to see if the system is able to prevent that.