Just had my security checked and the inspector told me that break action shotguns must be stored without forends attached. I have never seen nor heard of this through multiple inspections. Is this true?
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Just had my security checked and the inspector told me that break action shotguns must be stored without forends attached. I have never seen nor heard of this through multiple inspections. Is this true?
Sounds like bullshit to me.
Inspector has seen all my rifles and shotties (incl my endorsed ones) and hasn't said anything about breaking any of them down for storage
There is no requirement in the law to store firearms in a dismantled state PROVIDED they are stored separately from the ammunition. Ammo does not need to be locked up but does need to be stored in a manner that prevents ready access by children (steel ammo tins in a separate building is adequate). I strongly advise that firearms are stored in a complete condition (separate from the ammo). Do not remove bolts, magazines, fore-ends, etc. as in many cases these are impossible to replace, especially bolts and fore-ends (you would be amazed how often they are lost in such circumstances). Ignore Police 'instructions' if they differ from the law!
@gundoc thank you for a concise summary.
Have never been told that anything needs dismantling but no expert
Might sound a bit drastic and over the top but maybe we need to name and shame these officers that are giving out the wrong advice to what the law actually states?
‘Name and shame’ doesn’t read too well. I’d like to suggest a more constructive approach;
We are all agreed there are apparent inconsistencies across the country in how AO’s or their agent/contractors interpret and apply the safe storage section (and others) of the vetting/renewal process......
As these are often localised issues, would it be helpful to flag the REGION/District that particular AO/agent is applying their interpretation of the Act, so that forum members in that region are suitably prepared when they renew/apply, whilst at the same time we can all begin to see a wider picture.
Just a suggestion....
I would be wanting to have a chat to the local Arms Officer as this smells of "individual interpretation" (assuming he was not the inspector). As far as I know you can still both load and fire a break action shotgun with out the forend. Its just extraction / ejection of the fired rounds that wont happen fast. Happy to be proved wrong.
@SiB I do agree but how do we know that the message will get past on?
go buy a semi auto and put it in the rack next to the break open gun that is missing the fore end.
@Sideshow
It’s more about us as members; a; becoming wise to the nuances of our local AO through the experiences of other local members, (which means that they can more suitably present for their inspection) and b; we begin to achieve a clearer understanding of how different interpretations apply across our country - which from a national perspective allows us to constructively challenge those clearly inconsistent interpretations thus identified.
Emphasis on a positive and constructive approach.
@Sideshow
It’s more about us as members; a; becoming wise to the nuances of our local AO through the experiences of other local members, (which means that they can more suitably present for their inspection) and b; we begin to achieve a clearer understanding of how different interpretations apply across our country - which from a national perspective allows us to constructively challenge those clearly inconsistent interpretations thus identified.
Emphasis on a positive and constructive approach.
I was told the same thing by the palmy arms officer. I challenged him on it and he admitted it wasn't an actual requirement, but he would note that I wasn't compliant with that as part of the assessment...so I said I'd look at doing it in future. Which I haven't
So might be a few places around country doing it
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Lets Clarify here, when you talk of break action shotguns you talk about single barrel, Under and Over and Side By Side
Have I got this correct.
well for as long as Ive had my licence (25+ years) you have been "supposed" to store firearms and ammo seperately and if possible take bolts out etc to make then unusable..... even if its NOT a legal requirement it makes sense.
if someone manages to open you cabinet they arent in posession of entire working firearm...a triggerlock works on semis/pumps and yes you can use break open guns without the forestock....
growing up I had a young cousin get hold of the 6.5x55mm rifle from insecure storage and shot his younger sister dead inside the family home..... NOBODY EVER wants to go through that and prevention is simple to do.....
Jakewire I can use all 3 types without forestock.
I had my vetting earlier this year, opened the safe, the Auto right next to the U/O all forends on firearms, nothing mentioned to me
Never heard the like actually.
page 12 2017 arms code booklet 3rd and 4th line
WHEREVER POSSIBLE, STORE AMMUNITION SEPARATELY,AND DISABLE THE FIREARM
next line reads
if possible remove the bolt and magazine and lock away seperately from the firearm.
go down another 4 lines ...break open types can be dismantled.
pretty plurry black n white I thought...............
So we store the Break opens in three different places now
The ones the trigger group drops out of we can store in 4 different places, What fun.
Damn, just remembered how easy it was to change to a timney trigger in the last Remington I bought so Maybe...
Scopes off naturally especially on those rifles with no open sights, ...oh, Hang on......
when you park your car in garage do you remove your car keys????
its not that plurry hard to poke your foreneds in your sock drawer and your bolts in your jocks drawer is it?????
Upon inspection, open up ya cabinet empty of all but ya B/E/C cat and say that's all you need to see
If they want to play that game then fine, let's play that fuckin game
The 2017 Arms Code booklet has been withdrawn. The NZ Police website currently refers to the 2013 Arms Code book which states:
The Arms Regulations require these minimum standards
when storing your firearm:
• Ammunition must be stored separately or the firearm
made incapable of firing.
– If possible, remove the bolt and magazine and lock away
separately from the firearm.
– Make sure both the chamber and the magazine are empty.
– For lever, pump or semi-automatic firearms, you may not
be able to remove the action. Break-open types can be
dismantled.
– Trigger-locking devices are recommended for firearms
which cannot be taken apart.
The key is the word "or" in the sentence "Ammunition must be stored separately or the firearm
made incapable of firing."
Store your ammo separately and keep your firearm in one piece.
yip duckdog it does say that.... and then in th very next line in BOTH booklets it says, to dissable if possible/remove bolt..... its so easy to do and makes it so much harder for baddie to use why wouldnt you do so????
again do you remove car keys when you park in garage????
The original question was:
"Just had my security checked and the inspector told me that break action shotguns must be stored without forends attached. I have never seen nor heard of this through multiple inspections. Is this true?"
That is not required by the Arms Act and clearly incorrect.
There are lots of things you can do to improve security however that is a personal decision, not a legal requirement.
(and living in the country we leave the keys in all our vehicles and I have no idea where the house keys are!)
Ok so from my own reading and opinions on here, am I right in saying it isn't in the legislation, anywhere?
The police will talk about the “test of reasonableness”
IMHO it is in every gun owners personal interest to secure their weapons and ammunition as secure as is reasonably possible in their physical circumstances.
The goal being to have a measure of confidence that if a thief/burglar etc attempts to steal said item, it’s as difficult as possible.
We all also want to be regarded as “compliant” within the FAL application and renewal process.
My point being that security of property, particularly firearms and ammunition must be seen (and demonstrated) as a whole process; we should not get bogged down in the minutiae of where the forearm part is, or if it’s separate; it’s is in our own interests to consistently demonstrate that we are always security conscious, and we all want to make the theft or improper use of our firearms as difficult as possible.
The answer to any superfluous or seemingly pedantic question is to answer and emphasise the positive steps we have taken; don’t fall into the trap of answering a narrow question (eg are the fore pieces separate) with a negative answer. It isn’t about what we haven’t done, it’s about what we HAVE done to keep our firearms, ammunition secure.
End of story.
The guy came across as a pedantic non hunting or shooting volunteer who wouldn't understand the grey areas in the wording. He is looking for absolutes, black and whites. So I'll give him one. Is it in the legislation?
I would suggest calling the AO, i had a case when I was inspected that he (the inspector) wanted serial numbers. He was being quite a twat about it. I called the local AO and it was cleared up over the phone as not being required by law, and the local AO handled it from there. No idea what he said to the inspector but not had an issue since
Sure, keep your bolts separate as some inspectors may recommmend - then when you have the wrong bolt for your rifle will they come along and put it right for you?
Some guys get bent over so often that they make it sound like it's yoga and we should all be doing it - no fuckin thanks
Why the fuck should we put ourselves out just to conform to something that isn't even the law? On what planet is it right that some civil servant should tell you how to live your life?
In my opinion the Police's moral authority to tell you how to store your firearms beyond the letter of the law went out the window as soon as they started shafting us with their secret submissions and their agenda to register all firearms
They just plain aren't up to the job
in all my vettings both as a licence holder and a security referee i have never had any adverse complaints.
my rationale -If your eyes are too close together you do NOT get anywhere near my secure facility -as yet im yet to find a set of vetting eyes far enough apart that makes me search my keyrting -which has more keys than the bloody tower of london!! my current guy loves it when i tel him of my ultimate security measure
the wife who softly says to crim-"Is it roses ill be putting on your coffin!!".yup get on the wrong side of her indoors and its a distinctly unforgettable experience. mind you my current one is an extraffic cop turned copper now retired and as he says most preople whom he vets who have military experience are pretty conscientious about fireams safetyand if he does spot something ,usually a quiet word suffices.
i suspect some contractors may be infatuated witgh the postion.
incidentally anyone know whats required training wise to become a firearms vettor.Ive had this guy and anothewr rather pleasent petite young lass who was ex airforce.
No, it is not. Unless you store the firearm with ammunition (or have a restricted weapon), you do not need to disable the firearm.
19 Conditions relating to security precautions
(1) Every firearms licence shall be subject to the following conditions:
(a) the holder shall not put a firearm in such a place that a young child has ready access to it:
(b) the holder, where he or she has both a firearm and ammunition for it in his or her possession, either—
(i) shall take reasonable steps to ensure that the ammunition is not stored in such a way that a person who obtains access to the firearm also obtains access to the ammunition; or
(ii) shall ensure that, where the ammunition is stored with the firearm, the firearm is not capable of being discharged:
(c) the holder shall take reasonable steps to ensure that any firearm in the holder’s possession is secured against theft:
(d) the holder shall, where he or she has possession of a firearm that is—
(i) a flare pistol; or
(ii) a humane killer; or
(iii) a stock marking pistol,—
keep it in a locked container, except where it is under the holder’s immediate and personal supervision.
(2) On and after 1 July 1993 the reasonable steps required by subclause (1)(c) shall include—
(a) keeping on the holder’s premises—
(i) a lockable cabinet, container, or receptacle of stout construction in which firearms may be stored; or
(ii) a lockable steel and concrete strongroom in which firearms may be stored; or
(iii) a display cabinet or rack in which firearms may be immobilised and locked so that none of them may be fired; and
(b) keeping locked or immobilised and locked in the cabinet, container, receptacle, strongroom, display cabinet, or rack required by paragraph (a) every firearm which is on the holder’s premises and which is not under immediate and personal supervision of the holder or some other holder of a firearms licence; and
(c) ensuring that no firearm in the holder’s possession is left in a vehicle that is unattended.
However, you need to look at what the best security is for your situation, not just the minimum requirements. If they are secured in an actual gun safe, I would see little need to disassemble them.
As an aside. I'm moving out from my flat and moving back home. Do I need to open the safe for the vetting officer? I know that registering serial numbers is voluntary which I'm not going to do.
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Most of the inspectors and vettors aren't sworn police. Most I have had dealings with have been civilians contracted by the police to to that work.
The 1 guy that has been round the most, is a retired policeman and is a dottery old bugger but easy to deal with. Hes straight up, but some of the others in this area (12-13 of them) are known to be a bit hard to deal with