Thread: One up the spout

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Yesterday, a bloke I know told me that he now carries his rifle with a round in the chamber but with the sear disengaged; as in, he holds the trigger back during chambering so that the chambered round sits with the firing pin pressing on the primer under spring tension, but not 'cocked'.
This on a Remington and he claims that because the bolt shroud covers ( sort of) the back of the cocking piece this cannot be struck in a fall.

When game is sited and he is ready for a shot, he simply lifts and closes the bolt to 'cock' the action.

He considers this 'safe practice', I consider it possible that if the 'butt' was thumped down on a hard surface the inertia of the shell against the pressure of the mainspring could cause the rifle to fire.

Opinion would suggest this to be unsafe, does anyone know from an engineering / physics perspective whether it is safe or not ?

I know many who USED to do this....I also know of a fella who dropped a 8mm mauser down a bank in that state,it fired taking off fingers on one hand and going through chest and out shoulder..... he survived it surprisingly....
Ive seen dented primers from the practise....

One up the spout shooting must have been very common up until 2019 with semi auto hunting rifles, most of which are loud to load.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Yesterday, a bloke I know told me that he now carries his rifle with a round in the chamber but with the sear disengaged; as in, he holds the trigger back during chambering so that the chambered round sits with the firing pin pressing on the primer under spring tension, but not 'cocked'.
This on a Remington and he claims that because the bolt shroud covers ( sort of) the back of the cocking piece this cannot be struck in a fall.

When game is sited and he is ready for a shot, he simply lifts and closes the bolt to 'cock' the action.

He considers this 'safe practice', I consider it possible that if the 'butt' was thumped down on a hard surface the inertia of the shell against the pressure of the mainspring could cause the rifle to fire.

Opinion would suggest this to be unsafe, does anyone know from an engineering / physics perspective whether it is safe or not ?

You mean your ex friend whom you do not hunt with any more. Sorta like driving around a blind corner on the opposite side of the road saying its ok. When your mate discharges his bdl Remington 270 between your legs as you climb a fence you look at the world in a different way. Oh I forgot I had a round up there.

Not a good practice to have the bolt closed with the striker down on a live round but the degree of danger depends on the amount of exposure of the striker at the rear of the bolt in the event of a knock or fall. I prefer the following;

1. Muzzle ALWAYS in a safe direction. 2. Half-open bolt on a chambered round. 3, Next safest is bolt closed and safety catch applied (only if proven to be a good design in proper working order.

The person with a chambered round is in a position where they can expect to see game, and in a group ONLY the lead person has the chambered round. Sadly, the most unreliable safety mechanism is the nut behind the butt!

i prefer to trust a mechanical device that is in good working order than hoping some numpty holds the bolt half open and keeps his booger hooker off the trigger. only a few rifles are able to have half cock bolt locks but this is not really safer than just having the bolt closed with safety on as many rifles will fire when the trigger is pulled with the bolt halfway up. i feel like a lot of NZ "rules" are created from issues with the old lee enfield and by the Tikka T3 being one of the few rifles with a decent half cock bolt handle notch.

1. Muzzle ALWAYS in a safe direction is pretty much the main one for me.

When Im hunting with someone and I hear the click of an action my hair stands on end. Even with people I totally trust.
Choose who you hunt with wisely and with new people always have a conversation about safety protocols.

Personally I don't trust half cock or half open and only go to that mode if I'm in front and absolutely sure a shot is imminent. Far better to let a deer run than have an accident.

Greetings All,
After reading the posts in this thread I thought I should check exactly what is in the Arms Code these days.
In the short description of the rule the code calls for a bolt closed on an empty chamber when close to game. Further on it allows for a half open bolt, where the bolt handle is up and drawn back part way and the round partly chambered, when close to game. It then states if this is not possible then an empty chamber should be used. In the next paragraph it allows for a previously tested safety to be used on semi auto rifles.
Most of us who have tried to use the half open bolt with a cock on opening action know that the bolt slithers around like a greased eel. Due to this a position where the bolt is fully forward and slightly down (often incorrectly called half cock) has been used. This is not as safe as the half open bolt as it only takes some downward pressure on the bolt handle to have the rifle ready to fire. For this reason it is not condoned by the arms code.
I was a Firearms Safety Insructor in the 1980's and 1990's and tried to have the fully forward and partly down position addressed as it was commonly used at the time. Regrettably I could get no traction and the Arms Code, by default, recommends only the empty chamber for 99% of todays hunting rifles. No bush ninja is going to be satisfied with that.
Regards Grandpamac.

Greetings Again,
Further to my earlier post I thought I would share a little tale. The young stag in the photo was my first deer. Early one Saturday morning, many years ago, I was sneaking up the track above Middle Hill Hut when this chap blundered out of the scrub and stopped broadside on about 10 metres from me. I was likely carrying my rifle in the fully forward and partly down position that I was bagging in my previous post and a very quick shot resulted in a dead deer. Could I have managed the shot from an empty chamber? Unlikely. With a loaded chamber and on safe? Definitely.
As an aside my two non hunting companions carried the deer back to the hut on a pole which meant that no meat was wasted. Later in the day @NIMROD turned up, possibly to show me a few pointers on deer hunting due to my conspicuous lack of success, thanks mate, but I was still fizzing and pretty much useless for that.
Regards Grandpamac.

I used to own a Remington model 7 .308 many many years ago and used to walk around using the so called half cock with my thumb on the bolt ready to drop it if an animal was seen.
Well one day i slipped over my thumb closed the bolt and something touched the trigger, i blew a big hole in the ground, lucky it wasn't in me.
Now i will only use the so called half cock if the rifle allows me to engage the safety as well, this way if that ever happened again the safety is still on. I only do this if in front or hunting alone, otherwise the chamber is empty.

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

So far there is no conclusive answer to my question 'can the rifle fire with the striker in contact with the primer but without any blow to the cocking piece'
There is a pretty unanimous conclusion that this is not safe or no safer than round chambered and safety on.

Just to clear up this term 'Half cock', with a cock on opening action, as soon as the bolt is lifted the action is 'cocked'. The bolt body is rotated relative to the cocking piece to the cocked position. There is a 'Half open bolt position' as the cocking piece catches in its rotation, some actions having an indent for this. On a 'cock on open' action there is no 'Half cock' position.
If anyone is having trouble with noise chambering a round, try the following: Right handed shooter, bring the fingers of the left hand around the underside of the action until they can apply slight pressure to the case and ride it as the bolt pushes it forward to the chamber. Some actions are noisier than others and some are more difficult to get at like T3's, the quietest are Mauser type actions ( positive feed).

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

So far there is no conclusive answer to my question 'can the rifle fire with the striker in contact with the primer but without any blow to the cocking piece'
There is a pretty unanimous conclusion that this is not safe or no safer than round chambered and safety on.

Just to clear up this term 'Half cock', with a cock on opening action, as soon as the bolt is lifted the action is 'cocked'. The bolt body is rotated relative to the cocking piece to the cocked position. There is a 'Half open bolt position' as the cocking piece catches in its rotation, some actions having an indent for this. On a 'cock on open' action there is no 'Half cock' position.
If anyone is having trouble with noise chambering a round, try the following: Right handed shooter, bring the fingers of the left hand around the underside of the action until they can apply slight pressure to the case and ride it as the bolt pushes it forward to the chamber. Some actions are noisier than others and some are more difficult to get at like T3's, the quietest are Mauser type actions ( positive feed).

Greetings @Moa Hunter,
To be clear I am not getting at you over this but the position you describe, with the round almost fully chambered and the bolt fully forward and a little down is NOT the half open bolt position talked about in the Arms Code and to my mind, at least, is unsafe with failures mentioned in the other posts. The Arms Code says as much without coming right out and being clear. It states that if the half open bolt position is unstable with bolt handle raised and drawn half way back (as it is on most cock on opening actions) then the chamber should be carried empty. Not really an option for bush hunting.
Regards Grandpamac.

Sadly no rifle is ever the same so different models/makes all work differently and then you have different terrain in which you are hunting. Open areas allows for empty chambers and time to load versus close quarter bush hunting where time is limited and sound of chambering likely to alert the intended species of your presence.

I personally hunt with one up the spout in the bush with muzzle always pointing down, safety on. I use to and was shown "half bolt" was the preferred method, but after a few slips or navigating through tough bush, the bolt has closed on at least 2 occasions I recall in the 12 years I have been hunting like this. It's now 7 years on, and the safety has never been dislodged.

In summary, you should be familiar (remind yourself before every hunt) and test your rifle on which safe practice is most suited to your rifle and style of hunting.

im generally a empty chamber, if im in the first in line shooter of the group, ill go semi ready, as soon as someone else is about to swap out, un chamber, and he semi ready. but thats only bush stalking. usually we get long distance shots 500m-700m, so complete empty chamber until lined up ready to go.

I primarily hunt using a single shot rifle, so there is always "one up the spout". The rifle has a cocking hammer, but no safety. I hunt alone in the bush with this setup and only cock the rifle just before taking a shot. I'm mindful to deactivate the cocking mechanism if I don't take a shot. It's such a simple system that there isn't much to get confused about, even in the heat of the moment.

Originally Posted by MB

I primarily hunt using a single shot rifle, so there is always "one up the spout". The rifle has a cocking hammer, but no safety. I hunt alone in the bush with this setup and only cock the rifle just before taking a shot. I'm mindful to deactivate the cocking mechanism if I don't take a shot. It's such a simple system that there isn't much to get confused about, even in the heat of the moment.

There is a little Bergara ss in the cupboard so will likely do the same.
GPM.