Shotgun Life - Expert Dog Trainer Robert Milner Says Heck No to Shock Collars[]
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Bloody brilliant!! Thanks for that Dougie, new respect for Bob!
Fully did not expect that reaction lol. Anyway, cool article.
Yet they use them for kiwi training
I was going to get one for our toy poodle not much of a gun dog but points well, thought it would be better than alkathene and cleaner to use. May have to change my way of thinking after reading that!
You should, neither method you are thinking of are decent dog training methods. I train working dogs and the day you do your bun and need to hurt the dog you've fucked it up. There are better wyas, most are simple, dogs are simple, just communicate.. most people kick their dogs when they don;t know what else to do... learn what to do.
You say "THEY" like you think "THEY" might know what they're doing.. kiwi aversion training doesn;t work, doesn;t achieve anything except make a bunch of tree huggers feel they have done something and if you think the aversion training has done anything then it's delusional... how many Kiwis did your dog kill before the training? How many Kiwis have you heard of your mates dogs killing? How many Kiwis have we saved... just another bullshit PS problem, which doesn;t exist which is "fixed" by a cure that doesn;t work... but the results say.....
Jesus wept.
I understand the "reinforce positive behavior" side, but what is the way to deal with negative behavior, like barking for instance. You can't go and click when the dog isn't barking, would just confuse them...
They are not the wireless equivilent of a rolled up news paper.
I have 2 we use for our dogs but the Zap part has plastic knobs fitted in place of the zappers. We use em to call the dogs back as they can emit a beep which the dogs know means come back to us. Also means we can find them in the dark out walking in the winter, (we never ever walk them in town, ever) Saves shouting as our lot like to roam when we are out walking and they have 1 mile range.
Just another tool
See here
like This
Attachment 6445
Let the stoning commence:)
Positive reinforcement training does not work... at all for precisely the reason you have pointed out... the principle may get some people excited but let's be realistic... if the IRD started a program of sending thank you notes to people who pay their taxes and ignoring those that don't, then how many of us would do as expected??? Virtually none... same with dogs.
Dogs need to respect a consequence for poor behavior, but it does not need to be an electric shock or an ass kicking... smart trainers know there are far more effective ways of correction, that do not require electrifying a dog... electricity, even in low forms has a profound psychological effect on canines.... arse kickings rarely achieve anything with any dog... sound handling does. Praise for correct actions, condemnations for non requested actions and the ability to communicate with a dog in it's language... body language... is all that is need... no electricity, no hidings, no treats, no bullshit, good old fashioned stockmanship... to many are too impatient, to full of shit to understand that when you can TRULY communicate with a dog, all training becomes a joy.... I try to explain it, very few get it... but the few that do... i watch them and their dogs with pride... meanwhile I watch these treat training, positive reinforcement, hiding givers light up the dog brigade and shake my head, feel sorry for their dog and despair at the poor crap performance they get from their dog and the disdain I can clearly see in their dogs eyes. I enjoy the moments when my dogs look to me with trust and look me in the eye with respect and zero fear, not to piss all over me, but to ask in their way.... "What do want next Boss"?
Your poor dogs, imagine if you spent some time learning to communicate with them....???? No stoning is required, but maybe you should have some empathy and care for your dogs, of course if you don;t give a shit about them then your current course is perfect.
Shouting at dogs to get them back... that will never work, if they leave their "pack" they only return when they don;t know where it is... keep shouting, they know where you are and keep doing what they're doing... if you think they think like us, you have missed the basic fundamental of dog ownership... understanding you have a dog, not a four legged furry person... of course an easy solution for you is the collar... but that leaves you dog where?
I grew up learning to train animals... they are animals, not people, you have to learn to communicate on their terms because they are not smart enough to learn to communicate on ours... when that doesn;t work for you, when you don;t have the inclination to be bothered to learn how to communicate you can always light them up... Doesn;t make you smart, makes you an (*) with a dog that shares my opinion... perhaps you could start to work on the dogs level which is realistic, rather than expecting a dog to work on yours... just saying, end of the day, I'll bet I have better behaved dogs than you, which are happier than yours and have never seen one of your shortcut devices. But hell to eacxh their own, if ignorance is bliss... be ever blissful. :D
Ruff, can you give me an example of how you would react or show your dog that it is doing something bad (or not desired) ? Is it "No!" in a particular tone of voice, do you make eye contact, do you move up to dominate its space ? What I am interested in is how YOU personally show a dog you are training that what it just did was not good ?
Ruff you are right as always. I am happy with what we do, they come when called or beeped. Dogs have never been wacked, walloped or zapped and I can live with that Never tried the zapping and don't plan to.
Seem happy enough to me, curled up here. We cant all be as good as you eh. Not all of us do it for a living
No, not really, you could do any of those things. if the dog respects your position.... in the real dog world, leaders don't do anything physical, their position is accepted and conformity happens with a look. so many people get a dog and set about insisting it understand human behavior... imagine how quick the process would transform if people were less arrogant and changed their behavior to something the dog could understand????
If the dog has never been zapped why does it respond to the beep, lets not piss on each others shoes and tell each other it's raining.... :)
Don;t expect anyone to be at a professional level, but I do expect people to give enough of a shit about their dog to learn some things about it rather than the shortcuts that makes your life easier... Reckon a good dog deserves more, but even more importantly, will give you more, when you have real lines of communication with it, rather than just, "do as I say or here is the warning beep to tell you I'll hurnt you in a heartbeat"... but hell, if it works for you... :cool:
Currently the most viewed section in the whole forum, you could say the air is electric! :P
The truth is the truth! :)
ok, so in the "real" dog world, if a dog does not accept the leader or does not show the required level of respect, are you saying the "alpha" dog for want of a better term just looks at the guilty party ? to me it seems like there is more of a threat of implied or actual violence.
i have spent a bit of time watching lots of different "pack" animals (baboons, wild dogs, lions etc). usually any sign of disrespect or stepping out of line is dealt with pretty harshly, yes ?
guess it all boils down to establishing who is top dog, in a pack a lot of that is learned behavior, but raising a single dog in a suburban setting where they are not getting that constant feedback from other dogs makes it a different kettle of fish...
I really happy with my mother in law!!!
I use an ecollar and think they're a great tool for a dog that wont answer a command -my dog is well trained but wont always answer lke a robot so get a vibration o a low level zap.
Ruff, I am asking simple, direct questions, so no, not pulling your leg...
Don't expect a "book", but it would help if you give some practical examples. You seem to be saying that you work on a "be the boss, and establish a hierarchy approach", but have not explained how you do this. I am specifically interested in techniques to do this in a training environment that is owner + 1 dog, not a pack setup. I understand that you do this for a living, and if sharing info on a forum is somehow not in the interest of your business, then just say it...
It is dog training, not particle physics... Wasn't it Einstein who said something along the lines that any complex subject can be explained in simple terms, or if you can't explain something to a 5 year old you don't understand it yourself ? :D
the thing with training is there are different methods that suit different people and some work better than others for different people and dogs -dogs certainly have their own personalities as do humans .To out rightly knock using Ecollars as a solid training advice would be very ignorant I believe as do thousands of trainers that have had success.Obviously different arguments can proceed from here for example -if your dog doesn't have the Ecollar on then will he not obey - probably will and maybe not as much as if he did depending on excitement factor of his surroundings .
I would prefer the no Ecollar method but don't have 24/7 to train a dog to the level I want .If you train without one will your dog be better than one trian with a collar ---64000$ question and unless you can put up in a hunting or trial format to show that winning training it all just semantics.
Now in saying all of this I would not be adverse to listening to Ruff about his methods as it is what he does day in day out and not to "consider" his opinion would also be folly
Tussock, I do not agree with you about Cesear Millan. However, I do think you are on the same track as Ruff (who I am very interested in, but unfortunately getting roared such as like your example, makes me want to not read further) :P
Cesear is a bit over the top and forgive me if I am wrong Ruff, but he's what you're talking about with the quick-fix, yes? He's quite a flashy, step-in handler who at the end of the 60min program has this 'perfect' dog. I quickly stopped reading the thread where I included a video of Ceasar getting bitten, so I am not entirely sure on Ruff's opinion of him.
Anyway all I can say is that when I first was interested in dog training (around age 10) I thought Ceasar was amazeballs. Since finding more information, I don't feel quite the same :) which is fine! It's called learning and growing up and forming an opinion.
I know I am going to get shot down and growled at for this, but here's my 24months baby experience of +R training answer to the 'ignoring bad behaviour' question.
+ Positive. Meaning, something added.
- Negative. Meaning, something taken away.
P Punishment. Something that happens to discourage behaviour being repeted
R Reinforcement. Something that happens to encourage behaviour being repeted.
+R mark and reward for sitting during a greeting. 'Reward' can be food, toy, patting, attention.
-P turn away when dog is jumping up during a greeting. Leave the room. Remove rewarding stimulous.
+P Pinch dogs ear when jumping up during a greeting.
-R Stop pinching when not jumping up.
-------
+R Give discounted rates to people who pay their phone bill ontime.
-P Remove discounts to late payers. Block phone usage. Block future use of that company.
+P Employ door knockers to continually bash on the door and house of those who have not paid, starting from the moment their bill was due. Bashing has to be so loud that phone cannot be used well (can't hear)
-R Once customer has paid, stop the noise.
Okay that last one was really hard to come up with, but I hope I have given good enough examples :)
EDIT as I am sure everyone knows by now, I only have experience/research on domestic, family dogs. I don't do hunting dogs. Also this thread was started by me and it was to give people an insight on +R training not just at home but also with working dogs. With over 2000 members is it? I am sure the majority of dog owners on this forum actually own 'pot-lickers' (such as my own dog) and not working or hunting dogs. Phew. Does that cover me for not getting sued? ;)
One needs to pick apart training and the actions of a dog that you want to train --what are we really talking about here ?? What is happening in the training and how are you training for these action -whats going wrong and what are you doing to correct those actions .
All the talk of training is just blah blah to a degree -what are we talking about???
What Tussock said. I like it. I think that is what Ruff is trying to say too.
The Huntaway thing - I am a believer that this trait has been bread into them and they will do it at some point no matter what. I have many friends with Huntaways (as pets) and they expect no barking, unless given a time. And they are given plenty of times to go nuts, bark, be a dog, be a Huntaway. At home and when company is around, that is not the time to be a barking crazy dog. When asked ("voice!" or "are you talking?" etc etc) they are rewarded for the barking and growling, howling, doing their thing.
I just read an interesting book called "How to fix a dog gone wrong" by Pemela Dennison, I enjoyed it. It was my first experience looking into the causes and how to manage aggression.
? I don't understand if this is a joke or what?
Tussock - sounds like your pup is a pretty cool wee character. Dundee has a huntaway x Lab, he's a tall boy, super fast runner too! Bigger boof head than a pure lab. Cool guy. Did you like the look of the labs in the article (first post)? They have rather sweet faces. I'm not a huge lab person but slowly being converted....Scribe's dog was great, it was good to see a lab in action and not just under a dinner table cleaning up all the scraps! :P