Thread: Article

Ruff,
maybe be I came accross a bit "wrong" I am not saying your way is right or wrong just not all of us have same skills as you when it comes to training. I use the collar for things they were not designed for principally locating the dog, I would prefer to use a garmin astro but not allow here.

Originally Posted by ebf

Thanks Tussock, that makes sense, and was even done without growling

What I was trying to get at previously is asking if it is much harder training a single dog vs training a young dog where he/she sees how other dogs are behaving (well). In a pack (dogs, baboons, whatever) is it only the alpha that maintains discipline, or is it not also some of the other dogs "leading" by example ?

And sure, we humans don't necessarily get/understand dog/pack behavior. Pretty much the same can be said for some of these doggy debates where a couple of folks don't seem to realize that a debate/questions about training is not an alpha contest

Tussock has made a lot of sense. and I'll leave it with him as he articulates it better. You'll find most good dog handlers are very black and white people and so say things extremely directly... that's all I'm doing, I'm not being aggressive i am being forthright. In the dog world things either work or they don't and people seem to take my forthright approach as aggressive, it isn't. Simply there are facts and there are untruths... people will make a great case for things that don;t work... here is an example...

Originally Posted by el borracho

I use an ecollar and think they're a great tool for a dog that wont answer a command -my dog is well trained but wont always answer lke a robot so get a vibration o a low level zap.

A dog won't respond like a robot as it is a living creature. It should, however, if "well trained" respond. It cannot be well trained and not respond, if it doesn't respond it isn't well enough trained or requires more or more skilled training. The collar is used at the point where the know how ran out.

but this is presented almost like the disobedience is something to value because the dog isn't a robot..... it's that sort of thing that just stops people learning further because they have convinced themselves to accept such a low standard.

Originally Posted by Dougie

I would imagine that there is an 'order', not just one top dog and everyone else.

yes there is an entire order top to bottom, but it largely irrelevant to the trainer... all they have to focus on is who in charge.

In regards Ceaser Milan Dougie... I think his principles of pressure on pressure off etc are great. I have not read one of his books but do employ a very similar methodology. While it is absolutely possible to achieve major behavior changes in any aggressive dog in less than 60 minutes, hell, you can do it in less than five if you know what you're doing. Having said that, we all know there is probably three days worth of filming in every episode. I have been in a lot of trout fishing productions and it always makes me wince a bit when a 40 minute DVD is a compilation of four days fishing... makes it all appear a lot better than it is....

Milan has sound principles that work. I don't think they are presented in a usable way for most handlers through the TV show i have seen.

People seem to have the misnomer that for the Leader to influence by his or her body language there must be a threat of violence or a history of violence for the dog to understand the meaning of the body language. I don;t find that the case.. I don;t find it the case with dogs. My old 12 year old dog can establish dominance over another dog with body language, posture and movement without getting within 15 feet of another dog... they simply understand their own language... and they'll have learned most of it in the litter and interaction with other dogs...

Holding heads high, lower, walking through gates first, eating in front of the dog all don;t work because if the body language of the hanlder is not that of a leader the rest fo the time all those things are meaningless, and if their body is correct then all of those things are unwarranted. Most of the things people are told to do to assert dominance are more likely to be interpreted as challenges and lead to even worse behavior.

The main key to being the leader is not exposing the dog to your weaknesses that can lead the dog to think it can take advantage when it gets the chance... therein lies the biggest secret of all. I did one Rod and Rifle article about it, most people miss the significance of it. If you teach your dog you can;t catch it, it can take control when it wants... if you teach it it can disobey, it will, it only learns those things from you, it doesn;t know it until you teach it.... ponder that for a while and things will fall into place.

Originally Posted by ebf

Ruff, I am asking simple, direct questions, so no, not pulling your leg...

Don't expect a "book", but it would help if you give some practical examples. You seem to be saying that you work on a "be the boss, and establish a hierarchy approach", but have not explained how you do this. I am specifically interested in techniques to do this in a training environment that is owner + 1 dog, not a pack setup. I understand that you do this for a living, and if sharing info on a forum is somehow not in the interest of your business, then just say it...


It is dog training, not particle physics... Wasn't it Einstein who said something along the lines that any complex subject can be explained in simple terms, or if you can't explain something to a 5 year old you don't understand it yourself ?

Here is the answer to your private message...

You just said... "I am specifically interested in techniques to do this in a training environment that is owner + 1 dog, not a pack setup."

That is a pack set up... You +1 dog.. 2 individuals... dogs always have hierarchy... if there's two one is in charge, it changes dynamically... you cannot be the leader by deciding you are, you are only the leader while being a leader.

I get the impression you want me to give a simple example of walking with one shoulder lower than the other and all will be fine... it does not work like that, it is achieved with overall demeanor, body language, your tolerance to being ignored or disobeyed and how you react to those things... If you start with the basic principles of it and apply it you will see it work, from there you learn and develop as you do more training. It's not something that can be written in a text book to be learned over the next fortnight. Like deciding to take up horse riding reading a book and wanting to be an expert, it'll need a few years, a few horses before you get to a high standard. It's all here in the thread... I have just re read the entire thread... i don;t see where I've particularly aggressive to anyone, except to point out where methods are promoted that simply will not achieve what the handlers are wanting to achieve. You mentioned there being more than one way to skin a cat? Well not really, while there can be infinite variables in application the basic principle in dog handling remains the same... a dog is a dog and acts like a dog and understand being a dog. This limits the application of methods quite significantly to only those which the dog can understand and the basic principle of being a dog. The simple fact in the dog training world is 90% of the stuff people are taught doesn't work. That might seem bold, but it's the truth. I can explain further but have dogs to run, and don;t get snotty because I don;t feel like elaborating... If I offer something and someone doesn't get it and comes back at me with a snipey response I'll retain the right to say "bugger it" i can;t be bothered because while my writing style may seem as though I am uptight I'm as relaxed as hell and my dogs are just fine... I'm not the one here with the problems or issues.

Originally Posted by Tussock

We just went for a wee walk. I've had trouble with her walking at heel, mostly because of how I've elected to try and teach her. She was scurrying ahead and I had to keep pulling her back. I want her in my peripheral vision just shy of the muzzle where I can seeker and she can see me. So then I had a look at what I was doing. I was distracted by her and getting a little frustrated. I straightened myself out, took my attention off her and focused on hunting and like a miracle she dropped back into place and stayed there. It was me off task, not her. Does that mean in that scenario, with electric collar training I should wear one?




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Yes...

Use this method.... the trick to stop creeping ahead is to not always turn away from the dog and correct with the lead, but if it starts to creep forward to turn into the dog and make it get out of your way, back.... the dog learns to position itself where it can still see you about to to do this and doesn't get "collected" as you come through.

This is an interesting debate and Ruff I do appreciate your comments and points of view, especially as one who walks the walk, even though you may think otherwise.

I am a specialist at what I do for a living. I am bloody good at it and get to travel round NZ the Pacific Islands doing it for my employer. Our clients essentially pay me for my expertise and knowledge. I am sure they could install their equipment themselves as the documentation supplied with it is very complete, however I can do it faster / better and with less drama as it is my trained profession,(and when combined with 28 years experience I don't find it difficult at all even when I have bugger all to work with up in the Islands). As a result of my experience over the years I have come to the view that sometimes you need to engage/pay people for their expertise/experience when you are lacking. Everything is a lot less stressful and the end result is usually better!

Lots of specialists make their living cleaning up the messes of those who tried to do it first and failed, and in some cases (like dogs) that can mean people and dogs get hurt.

Now I would have been more than happy to have sent one or both dogs to a specialist trainer. I was never looking for the super duper hunting machine as I am not one. My basic expectationis for a dog, any dog, is to come when called, wait and not move when told and be totally stockproof anything else is a bonus.
I love my mutts, they go everywhere with me where humanly possible, but I am a time poor as a result of my employment.

Now you could say if thats the case then I should not have dogs but I think that is unfair. They are not neglected
I have no problem with attempting to train my dog per se but I am not an experienced trainer so the results are not those I would expect if the same dog (and me) went to an experienced trainer.

We seem to have a DIY view here in this counrty as regards to most things and especially to dog training and I don't see why people look down their noses at you when you mention using the services of a trainer.

In other countries like the USA and Europe (Germany for example) people do not even think twice about using the services of a trainer. Why is that?

I know there are not many professional dog trainers here in NZ but surely there is a place for them although they most likely will generally be doing it because they love it not to get rich as bugger all people seem to have similar views to me. People are not born dog trainers, some get there and by the time they do are older have learned what works and what doesn't.
Some never do, but that should not preclude them from having a dog. A good dog is of more use to me while I am still able to get about than when I am too old to get about.

Surely if the dogs were professionally trained and then the owners also spent a week at the end being trained in how to be the 'Leader" for want of a better word, then the end result would be a better happier combination than what we might have now.

What do you think?

A dog won't respond like a robot as it is a living creature. It should, however, if "well trained" respond. It cannot be well trained and not respond, if it doesn't respond it isn't well enough trained or requires more or more skilled training. The collar is used at the point where the know how ran out.

but this is presented almost like the disobedience is something to value because the dog isn't a robot..... it's that sort of thing that just stops people learning further because they have convinced themselves to accept such a low standard.[/QUOTE]
Im afraid this is simply not true Ruff of hunting dogs I have seen that are trained to hunt at a high level -not one has a clean slate and to imply that a highly trained dog will always answer just isnt correct!!!

I like your work though Ruff and people should listen to your advice as it is good

I have pretty much given away commercial training from March, only cause between music, fishing and dogs something had to give... but I agree totally Mikee I often use the analogy of my wife and her horse.... she's a keen horse person, she can ride and take care of a horse no worries at all, but she doesn;t go out and buy a foal raise it and break it in, she has a professional do that, the job gets done properly and she has, as a result, a well behaved manageable animal she can use and take care of.

Most gundog owners should use a similar philosophy in my ever so humble opinion.

Originally Posted by el borracho

Im afraid this is simply not true Ruff of hunting dogs I have seen that are trained to hunt at a high level -not one has a clean slate and to imply that a highly trained dog will always answer just isnt correct!!!

I like your work though Ruff and people should listen to your advice as it is good

I agree you may not have seen it... I reiterate it is 100% correct. I go back to my comments about works and what doesn't and also the standards people accept not knowing there is a better standard that is very achievable. If the dog is properly trained to respond, it responds, if it doesn;t respond then the training has not been up to standard... otherwise... what is training achieving....????

Actually I'll add to that... older training methods focus on teaching a dog to hunt in a certain manner for the handler. This often sets the dog into conflict with the handler where it will want to do something that is good for itself but not the handler... it's where the wheels fall off.

More modern methods, and the ones my methods are based on are centered in the pack going hunting, me and the dog, the pack behaving in a certain way and the dog doing what is good for the pack... when trained in this way, it wants to do what is good for the pack, not itself as an individual... in that situation it will always respond and comply with the one leading the hunt. Might take a bit to get your head around, but it will change your entire dog training world when you do.

Im sure we will talk further about this in person at a later date .I have decided "never" to only take my own advice as much as it hurts to be humble hahaha

On a slight side note, I recently read an interesting article in NZHunter about the importance of having a dog hunt for YOU not, for them. Quite a cool article. I know that authour will be slandered for promoting not caring what breed he has or what his dog looks like, but what it does for him. I really appreciated his honesty and to be honest absolute courage!

Originally Posted by Ruff

I have pretty much given away commercial training from March, only cause between music, fishing and dogs something had to give... but I agree totally Mikee I often use the analogy of my wife and her horse.... she's a keen horse person, she can ride and take care of a horse no worries at all, but she doesn;t go out and buy a foal raise it and break it in, she has a professional do that, the job gets done properly and she has, as a result, a well behaved manageable animal she can use and take care of.

Most gundog owners should use a similar philosophy in my ever so humble opinion.

Hey thanks for the reply
I know there is most likely no money in it but have never been able to work out why people wont/don't consider it. Or if they god forbid mention it to their mates usually get rasoundly slapped and told not to be so stupid, do it yourself

Ruff, thanks for posting the vid, very educational. I've seen some of your other vids in the past, and it's always fun to watch the dogs relax and be happy doing what they're told to.