Proposed changes will mean that dew claws cannot be removed and tails cannot be banded.
Page 62 of the surgical procedures section.
Submissions in opposition need to be forwarded to MPI by May 16
Consultation on proposed animal welfare regulations | MPI - Ministry for Primary Industries. A New Zealand Government Department.
I briefly read that but did not see where the above was written.
Trouble with these overreacting idiots with an agenda, is they don't see it is way worse for a gundog not having these so called painful procedures. Especially if the dog is used for what it was bred.
I definitely don't lay awake at nite, traumatized over the removal of my foreskin.
My last dog had dew claws and tail docked and I don't think he did either.😆
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[QUOTE=R93;459825]I briefly read that but did not see where the above was written.
Trouble with these overreacting idiots with an agenda, is they don't see it is way worse for a gundog not having these so called painful procedures. Especially if the dog is used for what it was bred.
I definitely don't lay awake at nite, traumatized over the removal of my foreskin.
My last dog had dew claws and tail docked and I don't think he did either.��
Not sure why your dog would give a rats arse about the removal of your foreskin :P
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I had it dried like a rawhide bone or pigs ear.
Took the bastard 3 yrs to get thru it😆
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I was circumcised late in life... we needed a fan belt for the Cruiser when out spotlighting one night! :omg:
Page 91 of the PDF if anyone is looking.
Must only be done by a vet, and for therapeutic reasons....
Bet it gagged all the way:DQuote:
Originally Posted by R93
People :O_O:involved in these decisions should have to be actively involved in the sport or farming practice that is directly affected, it's like let's start off on a tangent then work backwards? I'm not into being cruel to animals, I've still got my foreskin, but not being able to kick my cat would be an injustice!
Really? You don't lay there and rub where it once was like I do? Ha ha ha ha. Mine was preserved and elasticised and used most recently as Ritchie McCaw's knee support in the Rugby World Cup final.Quote:
Originally Posted by R93
Was it a matchbox one :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruff
I think the guy who wrote some of this document is probably a discarded cheesy foreskin himself. Probably uses one to tie back his man bun.
I'm happy to do a submission. The reasons for the procedure should be more inclusive than therapeutic reasons and should include the wording from the existing guidelines, and something along the lines of removal of tail and or due claws may be done to make the dog fit for purpose.
Working dogs/ hunting dogs are prone to damaging dew claws tail ends in course of their duties/ work.
I know this will effect a few on here @kawhia.
Talk about nanny state, my mutt gets along fine with other animals with part of tail removed as required for hunting dogs.
I feel sorry for you fellas who have had the ant eater snout removed. If it wasn't for yr aardvark where would you keep ya chuddy gum went not using?
mrs shares hers :omg:
To bring this back on track, have you had your dew claws removed R93?
Here we go again...we have a perfectly good system going now...I am sure that the people who propose these ideas have no understanding of the audits and protocols that are already in place...I am sick and tired of all this bullshit...
Try banning the docking of lambs. See how well that would go down
It is a very good point you make. Were that to happen you would have every greenie in creation up in arms because the poor little lambs were getting fly blown because of their shit covered tails and then there would be legislation that required farmers like Brads to wash their arses daily.
Yup. They were donated to some North Islanders. I couldn't help in the tooth department tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushy
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If a dog's tail is broken or damaged, and the tail is to be removed the operation is technically an amputation...it is far more than "therapeutic"...a two day old puppy having its tailed banded is not even aware of what is happening as its neurological system is not complete...what do they not understand...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointer
All mine have there tails on, I don't see the big deal. Dewclaws however do cause more problems.
You wait till you see a Spainal with a damaged long tail due to working in heavy cover.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirehunt
It's a bloody mess which is an understatement! If they get it caught in brambles they can rip all the hairs out I've even seen them pretty much strip it to the bone:sick:
For working dogs this is a big set back if they go ahead with this!
So in short it is a big deal!!!
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideshow
I used to know a fella that ran 2 English pointers on rabbits around our district.
They were not docked. He had to tape up their tails as they were a frigging mess.
He probably should have had them both docked as soon as the damage started to happen imo.
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Yep R93 that's exactly the point. Then the dog spends all his time trying to get the tape off?
My gsp has both because he is a no papers heathen. In saying that the worst I've seen is that he gets a bit of blood every now and then on the tip of his tail. He has worse when he manages to chew rocks... I actually like his tail, makes him easier to see in the thick stuff as the tip is white. Looks cooler when on point too I think. He once had limp tail syndrome but that was his first time pheasant hunting and he had never wagged it so much. It came right in about a week and has never happened again.
I would like another gsp with a tail but don't like my chances if I now want good blood lines.
Docking doesn't affect me or my dogs at all but I stand by others decision to do so if they choose to. There is nothing inhumane about it. I have had an undocked vizsla and her tail would open up just around the house. Any thick cover and she looked like a murder scene
Um.............. I don't think EPs are meant to be a "docked " breedQuote:
Originally Posted by R93
They were GSPs sorry, I don't know how that happened?
Should proof read a bit more.
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but is your gsp like mine was wildman a tiger in every cover blackberry gorse boxthorn??Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildman
i would hated to see his tail after scrambling thru some of that crap if it had been long.
plus the old timers didnt do these things for fun or as an asthetic touch.
it was is done for the welfare of the breed in the job that they do.
My blue heeler has her dewclaws and they are a right pain in the arse, she likes to wrap her legs around yours when she gives you a greeting hug it sometimes rips my skin. Luckily tho she hasn't yet damaged them herself. I didn't even think to take it up with the breeder when I first inspected the litter, maybe they were against it.
I am passionate that historically docked breeds should remain so...there are many mamby pamby people out there who, by virtue of their lack of knowledge of the working dog, see it as some sort of mutilation...far from it, just as the points you guys have given...the Pointer for instance would not have historically been docked as he was a grouse/moors dog...not like the spaniels breeds, Epagneul Breton and the terriers etc...saw a Rottie at the show a few weeks ago who had a long tail ... he did not look right, at all...:omg:!!!!!!!! I laugh when I read that the shortening of the tail undermines the dogs communicative skills and balance...what a joke!!! There is no damage to the musculature in the rear end as some rabid ignorami attest...!!! Breeds such as the Smithfield (the real one!!), anoure (tailless or bobbed) Epagneul Breton, and others do just fine...:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by gsp follower
i note the powerful farm lobby is not included in this legislation.docking lambs is a far more painful operation than 2-5 day puppies. never mind cows. it is agenda driven not by concern for animal welfare. docking puppies/removing dewclaws, when done at the correct time under hygienic conditions causes little stress or discomfort.if this becomes law it will be difficult to respect because the mentality behind it, is stupid.
The farm lobby is also the reason the electric collar isn't included on the schedule but the prong collar is.
Yep nothing stops him when he is on fresh scent. Was at the river on point next to a big wasp nest yesterday and when I noticed, I had to drag him away, covered in black and yellow germans, and chuck him in the river... He has a bit of a swollen ear this morning...Quote:
Originally Posted by gsp follower
Anyway I'm no saying that it shouldn't be done, just that I have a dewclaw and long tail working dog, and have not seen the supposed ill effects of his non-conformity.
Actually the thing that does get hurt the most on him is his ears, they get the odd cut and bleed like all hell. Should I dock those?
Teach her not to jump up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathias
Made my submission. Keep the breed standards the way they are and let traditionally docked breeds remain that way.
Made my submission.
Don't be part of the silent majority (don't like but not likely to have a whinge), be part of the vocal minority, add your ten cents worth. :angry
Heres what I sent, its a bit long winded, (get a cupa tea and get comfy). If your interested in making a submission, feel free to plagiarise this below. PM me and ill forward by e-mail if you want.
Submission on Animal Welfare Regulations
19 April 2016.
I would like to make a private submission regarding the consultation document
Proposed Animal Welfare Regulations (Care & Conduct & Surgical & Painful Procedures)
In General.
Any legislation that is for the welfare of animals against cruelty or suffering can only be seen as a good idea. No responsible animal handler wants to see any of their animals under their charge or someone else’s charge suffer unnecessarily.
In general terms the proposals look to be reasonable and fair. I do however see some points that will cause some alarm to animal handlers throughout the country.
I do notice the organisations who have helped to propose the changes to the document are known for their bias, and I believe that by only including the NAWAC, RNZSPCA and the Vet Council, that it is possible that the proposals may be lacking some balance.
Some of the newly proposed legislations potentially turn simple procedures by suitable experienced people into procedures to be carried out by Vets or Vet trainees. Further to this it makes it possible for prosecution and in some instances criminal charges.
This will be adding further financial burdens to some of the handlers, and if they are prosecuted could potentially turn normally law abiding handlers into criminals.
For this reason I would like to see more direct input from other organisations and groups such as Federated Farmers and Breeders. It should be expected that people who have worked and cared for the various breeds with their extensive knowledge would more direct input on the sensibilities of some of these proposals. I also note that there are more issues that need to be worked through than has been highlighted in Blue in the document, which MPI may have over looked.
In Particular.
Although I have read the document I wish only to comment directly regarding Dogs, as I am a dog owner and enthusiast, and feel qualified only to speak about these proposed changes.
12.0 Surgical and Painful Procedures Regulatory Proposals.
61. Dogs – Dew Claws.
In the wording “Must only be performed for therapeutic reason” does not go far enough to cover the necessities of this procedure. Many Working, Hunting and Agility dogs suffer from having a due claw ripped off, partially torn away from the vigour’s of carrying out their work or duties.
It must be an option to have the Dew Claws removed at a young age if they are deemed by the breeder, owner or Vet to be at risk of causing injury to a dog latter in its life.
I have experienced this with a hunting dog climbing rocks in a creek and it was painful for the dog involved and stressful for the dog and myself. This can be sensibly avoided by the simple procedure.
It would be remiss to not allow this option.
62. Dogs – Tail Docking.
The existing regulations are suffice, but in the new proposal the wording “Must only be performed for therapeutic reason” does not go far enough to cover the necessities of this procedure. Some of the reasons that hunting and working dogs have this procedure done is for the long term welfare of the ends of their tails. NZ has particularly thick, and thorny areas these dogs work and they are prone to tearing the ends of the tails away. This injury never really heals up that well and once it happens they are prone to further injury when working.
The way the proposed changes are worded it reads that a dog owner must wait until his dog has an injured tail before the procedure can be done. For most dogs this would be from a year onwards, making it total unnecessary and involving a traumatic visit to the vet, not to mention another financial burden.
A hunting dog can at times become ineffectual if they are prone to wagging of the tail in cover which could alert or flush the object of the dog’s attention.
The breeds that have their tails docked have had them done so for many years and shown that the procedure does not affect the animal in later life, and are beneficial to the dog’s welfare and function. I believe that the breeds with docked tails should be able to continue to be so, and to let the breed retain the desired look.
MPI must seek more direct input from Dog breeders regarding the appearance of their breeds. Not enough emphasis has been allowed for breed appearance and function in this proposal.
It is interesting to note that you approve of Lambs having their tails docked, at a much older age than a dog and this is considered to be Ok, This is appears to be a double standard, if MPI are concerned about the pain caused by this procedure. Docking a dog’s tail when it is less than four days old would be far less traumatic than docking a lamb’s tail when it is six months or less.
Thank you for the opportunity to comment and place a submission on the proposed changes.
Sincerely,
Must include in your submission:
Name.
Contact details.
PDF and Email to:
Animal.welfaresubmissions@mpi.govt.nz
In Subject line include term:
Submission on Animal Welfare Regulations.
Or Post to:
Animal Welfare Policy
Minister for Primary Industries.
PO Box 2526
Wellington 6140.
Addressed to: Submission on Animal Welfare Regulations.
I have 2 breeds, one docked the other not, It doesn't bother me one way or the other , What I do think needs to be policed is the docking of puppies by back yard breeders, I see so many puppies ( Rottis in particular) on trade me or face book for sale and they have been docked by any old smuck with either a knife or pair of scissors when I ask about who docked the puppies I get all sorts of abuse and the " Oh we have docked like this for years", pups don't feel it and it doesn't hurt them they are all good straight after it is done. As the law stands right now, no registered pedigree dog can be docked by just anyone, you must be an accredited docker, if not done by an accredited docker you can't register the pups with the NZKC however it doesn't address all the unregistered litters born and docked at what ever age and by whoever. I think you will find that the normal working sheep dog will still have their dew claws removed and in fact you would not be able to tell looking at an adult dog whether it had dew claws as a baby or not.
Now I'd make a submission but I don't live in the country!
Can I?