Thread: Versatile hunting dog test

Originally Posted by el borracho

If your ever keen on a Setter give us a holler in a year as they should be fresh outta the oven !

I couldn't do that, then I'd have to change my name to "Setter"

Originally Posted by el borracho

its about the quality of the work and not fitness , any well put together dog can run well for a days shooting. My point was also at club trials you have dogs to see and unless you have an intimate knowledge of someone else's dogs that little diamond will to hard to find

In the gem world I cannot tell a diamond from CS... In the dog world one will stand out... I don;t believe the many can use trials as a benchmark anymore... not because of their dogs, but because of the quality of their eye... we are losing real old fashioned dogmanship... it existed... once... People like Robin, Bob, Noel, Leon, are more could watch a dog run, stack it against one of their and know in 5 minutes if it was a candidate, it didn;t need a day in the field or twenty minutes on a trial field.. sure that would eventually seal if it was a pretender or not, but it should not be, never would be and can;t be the criteria.

We are getting way to caught up in things that don;t really matter... people trying to sell us on dogs that have no crieteria to back them up... people who lambast the trial and claim watching their dog run all day is the answer, people who claim the dog in the field is of no use unless stacked against another of known quantity... yeah sure, i have bought into this bullshit too... ultimately these rhetoric are more about what someone wants to sell you than what is a real dog for the real world... we're losing that slowly as the game becomes more important than the dog... the DOG IS THE IMPORTANT THING. Great dogs can magically appear out of no where, but it seems the day of the line that consistently produces great dogs is fading... we had Jim with the Bally black Spaniels.... Leon with the Wingfield's now when we look to great kennels and outstanding dogs, to be fair, little is left... Kilsheelan is the kennel left with outstanding results, few duds, little in the way of genetic issues... and throughout this time we have had everything mentioned here, and still our dogs deteriorate...

Wouldn;t it be great if a few more had the balls to say out loud what I think, if we could turn this tide, or maybe we will just pander to bukllshit games played by people who are playing bullshit games and continue to watch our gundog lines diminish into nothing as the trend clearly shows tey are...

So, while you all want to call me a wanker... lets think about what YOU are doing ti improve things, what you have done to change the trend, if you will be the next Leon or Jim or if you just want to use bullshit to bluster to the public the crap you are doing with dogs and make it sound like you are getting it right... when really you are breeding more couch doolies that have a nose... The NZ hunting fraternity deserves better and if you are not prepared to do the hard yards to provide it, stop bullshitting everyone and get a new hobby.

Not aimed at anyone in particular... so don;t get all personal... but you can get enthusiastic about getting it right! People say I hate to be wrong, in this case. I'D LOVE TO BE!!!!

Originally Posted by Pointer

I couldn't do that, then I'd have to change my name to "Setter"

LOL its got a nice ring to it

Originally Posted by Ruff

In the gem world I cannot tell a diamond from CS... In the dog world one will stand out... I don;t believe the many can use trials as a benchmark anymore... not because of their dogs, but because of the quality of their eye... we are losing real old fashioned dogmanship... it existed... once... People like Robin, Bob, Noel, Leon, are more could watch a dog run, stack it against one of their and know in 5 minutes if it was a candidate, it didn;t need a day in the field or twenty minutes on a trial field.. sure that would eventually seal if it was a pretender or not, but it should not be, never would be and can;t be the criteria.

We are getting way to caught up in things that don;t really matter... people trying to sell us on dogs that have no crieteria to back them up... people who lambast the trial and claim watching their dog run all day is the answer, people who claim the dog in the field is of no use unless stacked against another of known quantity... yeah sure, i have bought into this bullshit too... ultimately these rhetoric are more about what someone wants to sell you than what is a real dog for the real world... we're losing that slowly as the game becomes more important than the dog... the DOG IS THE IMPORTANT THING. Great dogs can magically appear out of no where, but it seems the day of the line that consistently produces great dogs is fading... we had Jim with the Bally black Spaniels.... Leon with the Wingfield's now when we look to great kennels and outstanding dogs, to be fair, little is left... Kilsheelan is the kennel left with outstanding results, few duds, little in the way of genetic issues... and throughout this time we have had everything mentioned here, and still our dogs deteriorate...

Wouldn;t it be great if a few more had the balls to say out loud what I think, if we could turn this tide, or maybe we will just pander to bukllshit games played by people who are playing bullshit games and continue to watch our gundog lines diminish into nothing as the trend clearly shows tey are...

So, while you all want to call me a wanker... lets think about what YOU are doing ti improve things, what you have done to change the trend, if you will be the next Leon or Jim or if you just want to use bullshit to bluster to the public the crap you are doing with dogs and make it sound like you are getting it right... when really you are breeding more couch doolies that have a nose... The NZ hunting fraternity deserves better and if you are not prepared to do the hard yards to provide it, stop bullshitting everyone and get a new hobby.

Not aimed at anyone in particular... so don;t get all personal... but you can get enthusiastic about getting it right! People say I hate to be wrong, in this case. I'D LOVE TO BE!!!!

hehehe I always love your replies and sentiments Ruff ! The enthusiasm and passion you have is to be admired .Times are a changing for the hunt to some degree - how often do you hear its getting harder to find good spots as either council or farmers have changed the ability to have easy access .Partially due to these certain hardships we probably have less people breeding gun dogs -there are still alot but certain gene pools are limited and the consequence of time , accesses and what ever the fuc else is changing the face of country sports to some degree .Some have a greater knowledge than others of breeding and have possibly greater accesses to good dogs because they know them and have seen them .If you don't know or see these little diamonds you'll never breed to them hence why I like the trial scene as there are a pool of animals to readily look at .Whilst one must recognize there are many dogs out there to potentially breed to its just to find them if you don't know them . How many great kennels has NZ actually had in each of the specialty areas that were readily available to the NZ public to consider -seems few .We can only work with what we have and move forward in the most positive manner available to each individual and even then opinion will vary on what is average good or great .Its great to be able to have these conversations !!!

Interesting Ruff, so if it is all rhetoric from both the trials sector and the hunting sector, then how do we find good dogs? People who have the 'eye' or 'dogmanship' weren't born with it, they develop it by exposure to good dogs? Where do we find these good dogs and how can we justifiably say it is a good dog?

Also, if trials are a useful benchmark, then can you say the benchmark today is very different to P&S 25 years ago? And if it isn't, and the benchmark is the same, are the dogs just worse? Interested to know your thoughts

Simple mate. work with good dogs... these forums have a lot of people telling us what is a good dog and the modern age has people who do nothing wanting an answer from a forum... that won;t happen/ can;t happen, buying an espanuel whatever cause some one on a forum says it hunts is bullshit... you want a good dog... go find it... that's what we all did, and guess what... WE DID.

Fair call. Seek an ye shall find. So, where are these good dogs?

in my car right now

I know this is a long shot but I am having Semen taken for Testing from Inti -he is 9 .If it no good so be it but if it is swimming strong I will use it -Matamata vets will do it next Friday and advise me same day .

Brick will be ther on monday

they didnt have a bitch on heat to use up until yesterday and offered me a dirty old rag with a bit of pheromone on it haha seriously -I thought it was as funny as hell

Originally Posted by Wirehunt

Funny thing to say Ruff, a mate just took a third or maybe fourth gen pup away the other day and is stoked with it already, and it hasn't even been on the hill yet, he's already booked more when they arrive

Yes they can be great, in a generic way... you cannot breed for specific traits with such crosses... line breeding to specific traits within specific breeds is what has created the breeds. When you cross those breeds to get you hybrid vigor you are taking advantage of that, so your contention is actually an argument for th epure breed... without it, you don;t have the cross breed you favor...

Originally Posted by Tahr

I've got a mate who has got into spaniel trials over the last 2 years. He has really taken to it and is doing quite well. He finds it a good social activity and he has made some new friends.

Although his dogs in the past have always been lovely and did what they were bred for, they were always deer chasers and the discipline was rather second to the close relationship he has had with them.

But now, the transformation is amazing.

This latest trial dog is the most obedient and well trained gun dog I have ever seen. The dog is a pleasure to hunt with, and now its my dog that looks a bit naughty

So big ups for the trials. My friend has gained a new interest, his dog is amazing, its great to hunt with and he has set a new bench mark for me to aspire to.

In case my point is misunderstood, I am very much an advocate of trials, which is why I have attended them for close to 30 years... I am just pointing out we may have lost some direction... nothing more. I am NOT condemning trials.

Originally Posted by Ruff

Look guys, I know it might not appear that way but here's the rub... for the very reasons outlined I AM A FAN OF TRIALS.... I AM A HUGE FAN OF THE CONCEPT OF THE VERSATILE TESTS!

I also take a shot at NO INNOCENT PARTY... I SHOOT BACK... TAKE A SWING... I'LL BRING A COMBO BACK. I don;t Target ANYONE... EVER, NEVER HAVE!

Live game trials have advanced NZ gundog handling massively, we have gone from some of the very worst handlers in the world to some of the not so worst handlers in the world in a very short space in time. The versatile tests are doing NOTHING but should be doing something... the only thing standing between them and success is the quality of people who put value in them, the quality of the people who participate in them. Maybe I'm wrong, but my view is that certain people would rather NOT have knowledgeable people involved because it render them redundant... call it a pissing contest if you must, but it's not. I don;t have a dog in the fight... I have no versatile, I run springers, i run them in live game when I can, when I'm not i shoot game over them....

BUT as a trainer i get calls constantly from folks... if the NZVHDTA stood for more I could recommend their participation... instead of viewing me as a threat I could be viewed as the very best recruitment tool they EVER had... but... my thoughts differ from hers... now I cannot be a member, I cannot attend a test... why? Cause she said so... oh yeah and some waffle about rules... it's all clear... this is her thing, she believes she has the right to ban me... she does. I couldn't give a shit... i didn't want to go anyway... but HUNTERS can do better... She is the issue standing between what the assn can do for HUNTERS and what it can do for her... we'll leave it be. Gail... I'll leave you out of it and give you your one shot... I don;t take shots... i respond to them, you took yours... take another and I might not play so nicely... I stand for nothing other than better dogs for NZ hunters. I have NOTHING to sell, no crusade, other than better dogs.... help yourself if you think you have the higher ground. I will outline and defend my position with all of my INTEGRITY of which I have a lot and will stand by. I am here to discuss, argue and defend anything I say. I run from nothing and have nothing to hide. people know who i am, I will front up with a dog to show what i believe is good dog work and I hide behind no nom-de-plume...


Come get me... or maybe we can all just be sensible and do more for the dogs and less for our egos.

I must also add that this is not a generalisation of everyone involved in versatile tests. I have respect for and admire many of the people trying to make the best of them... off the record they all say the same things I am doing so here in public.

The tests need a bomb under them... with the right effort, people and knowledge they can be of huge advantage and help bring back the versatile, as it is close to the most popular style of dog in NZ,.... back to being a show/companion dog to a hunting dog... Am I the only one who has noticed the number of posts from people desperately wanting to know where to get a decnet GWP, GSP, Visla etc????? I believe the Labrador should be, in NZ, recognised as one!!! (There's a topic for you)!!!!

Originally Posted by Pointer

No one mentioned fitness?

No one has found a way to breed fitness yet