Thread: NZFS ammunition article by Lynn Harris

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

@Barry the hunter I've heard it said that the NZFS culling was actually not keeping the deer population down adequately, and it was the helicopter guys who saved our forests (yes this is from a conservation person, not a hunter). Do you have any comments about this? I was speaking to a HBRC Councillor last week who mentioned seeing hundreds (literally) of red deer around Tutira post-cyclone, the numbers are getting huge in some areas.

yes I would agree with that about helicopters - it became to big a job after WW2 - and private land was not really touched by NZFS - the heli boys certainly did a job - one station I worked on had in 60,s likely 80-120 deer on it - one 500 hughs pilot was given rights to live capture it with a 50 / 50 agreement - barely 3 months later maybe two very scared ones left - 80,s and into 90,s deer in a number of areas were slim pickings -now yeah ha - young hunters have the best hunting in years - numbers are huge in some areas - I dont doubt shoot to kill missions with helis will become more frequent -currently DOC internal policy is not to specifically target deer with toxins and long may that continue - bring back the cullers - no I cant see it except in areas where success is likely - we have to live with the simple fact that ground hunting over much of NZ is not a likely or successfull option - a lot of hunters simply dont realize that to control an animal population you must shoot more than the breeding rate -you need to remove over 90% of target animal population otherwise go tip ya money in ocean - if you only remove 10% well ya have had some fun but meaningful control no nyet non no way

I’m lucky enough to have a full box.

Originally Posted by EmpireSafaris

I’m lucky enough to have a full box.Attachment 220099

likely worth a little bit to a cartridge collector - we did not get any .270 like that - we all used .222 or .308 but likely there was some in Gisborne store - now there was a bloody treasure trove

Originally Posted by Barry the hunter

yes I would agree with that about helicopters - it became to big a job after WW2 - and private land was not really touched by NZFS - the heli boys certainly did a job - one station I worked on had in 60,s likely 80-120 deer on it - one 500 hughs pilot was given rights to live capture it with a 50 / 50 agreement - barely 3 months later maybe two very scared ones left - 80,s and into 90,s deer in a number of areas were slim pickings -now yeah ha - young hunters have the best hunting in years - numbers are huge in some areas - I dont doubt shoot to kill missions with helis will become more frequent -currently DOC internal policy is not to specifically target deer with toxins and long may that continue - bring back the cullers - no I cant see it except in areas where success is likely - we have to live with the simple fact that ground hunting over much of NZ is not a likely or successfull option - a lot of hunters simply dont realize that to control an animal population you must shoot more than the breeding rate -you need to remove over 90% of target animal population otherwise go tip ya money in ocean - if you only remove 10% well ya have had some fun but meaningful control no nyet non no way

Actually I think the line below which populations cannot readily recover is 30% residual. 10% residual is very drastic. That 30% assumes an approximate 4-7 year population recovery assuming no further culling so for sustained herd management a 30% residual population to start a sustained management herd would be a reasonable start point depending of course on a known ecological balance. E.g. The Lake Monk study.
Filing the tips of 303 ball ammo worked very well. Ground based culling from strategically located huts and fly camps was pretty effective and allowed semi-permanant pressure on the animals in many areas. If better and cheaper hunter access was invested in today I think the knockdown achieved by heli operators uears ago could have been capitalised upon and the current situation of exploding numbers avoided.

Originally Posted by Woody

Actually I think the line below which populations cannot readily recover is 30% residual. 10% residual is very drastic. That 30% assumes an approximate 4-7 year population recovery assuming no further culling so for sustained herd management a 30% residual population to start a sustained management herd would be a reasonable start point depending of course on a known ecological balance. E.g. The Lake Monk study.
Filing the tips of 303 ball ammo worked very well. Ground based culling from strategically located huts and fly camps was pretty effective and allowed semi-permanant pressure on the animals in many areas. If better and cheaper hunter access was invested in today I think the knockdown achieved by heli operators uears ago could have been capitalised upon and the current situation of exploding numbers avoided.

the technology available to hunters today are leaps n bounds ahead too.... a thar at 600 yards would have laughed at you 50 years ago...
thermals were not even heard of....
yeah spotlighting on DOC land has always been illegal..... but thats sort of counterproductive too,especially for possums... the stupid no drop off in areas without permits is also dumb other than in areas of special interest,reading newer permit conditions its getting tougher and tougher not easier. dumb

Originally Posted by Barry the hunter

yes I would agree with that about helicopters - it became to big a job after WW2 - and private land was not really touched by NZFS - the heli boys certainly did a job - one station I worked on had in 60,s likely 80-120 deer on it - one 500 hughs pilot was given rights to live capture it with a 50 / 50 agreement - barely 3 months later maybe two very scared ones left - 80,s and into 90,s deer in a number of areas were slim pickings -now yeah ha - young hunters have the best hunting in years - numbers are huge in some areas - I dont doubt shoot to kill missions with helis will become more frequent -currently DOC internal policy is not to specifically target deer with toxins and long may that continue - bring back the cullers - no I cant see it except in areas where success is likely - we have to live with the simple fact that ground hunting over much of NZ is not a likely or successfull option - a lot of hunters simply dont realize that to control an animal population you must shoot more than the breeding rate -you need to remove over 90% of target animal population otherwise go tip ya money in ocean - if you only remove 10% well ya have had some fun but meaningful control no nyet non no way

I find it ironic that farm owners with high animal numbers still won't allow proper responsible licenced hunters onto their properties to help reduce the numbers.

I've asked a few, and been knocked back. (If anyone would like to offer, I would be keen..........). It seems like they view the animals as an asset, rather than the noxious grass eating pest. As far as I'm aware there is not much of a export market left, and live capture won't ever come back like it was. Too many deer farms around now to supply. Maybe they are holding onto the hope that the export trade will return.

I don't like their chances. The deer numbers will continue to increase and they will become a real problem in the next few years.

(Sorry, dont mean to Hijack thread)

Originally Posted by tac a1

I find it ironic that farm owners with high animal numbers still won't allow proper responsible licenced hunters onto their properties to help reduce the numbers.

I've asked a few, and been knocked back. (If anyone would like to offer, I would be keen..........). It seems like they view the animals as an asset, rather than the noxious grass eating pest. As far as I'm aware there is not much of a export market left, and live capture won't ever come back like it was. Too many deer farms around now to supply. Maybe they are holding onto the hope that the export trade will return.

I don't like their chances. The deer numbers will continue to increase and they will become a real problem in the next few years.

(Sorry, dont mean to Hijack thread)

Largely because many Hunters can’t follow simple rules set by Land Owners.

Why tar everyone with the same brush???. Not all of us are gun toting morons who cant follow instructions.

Have a problem with someone, ban them. Simple.

Ive always thought the .270 ammunition came in both 150 and 110grn for the nzfs

BTH... do a search... Flyblown wrote really good speil on this some time back..warts n all on current situation

1967 - $24/1000 for .303 - damn - inflation has hit hard - 2.5 cents each.........

In 1966 we were issued the hollow-pointed .303 ball which came in cases of 750 rounds and it did the job fairly well. The NZFS .270 was issued in 130 grain for the more open and longer range shooting in the South Island while the 150 was mainly used in the North Island where there was more bush shooting and usually shorter ranges. I was well out of it by the time the .270 was used but I still 'picked up' a few packets from mates for my collection.

@gundoc Time to pick your brains.The story doing the rounds when I was with FS was that the 270 CAC NZFS headstamp was an internationally historically significant and unique in that it was the only headstamp ever struck world wide for a end user,apart from the usual military arsenal or commercial headstamp.Do you know the validity of that statement ?If so, puts those cartridges in another league

The NZFS headstamp is not the only end-user example but it is certainly one of the few. Another example I know of is the MDPD pistol ammo of the Metro Dade Police Department (Miami) and there are others. Internationally, the NZFS h/s is highly collectable.

Originally Posted by gundoc

The NZFS headstamp is not the only end-user example but it is certainly one of the few. Another example I know of is the MDPD pistol ammo of the Metro Dade Police Department (Miami) and there are others. Internationally, the NZFS h/s is highly collectable.

Wasn't there also the Helicopter company? I'll have a look in my CAC stuff later.