Thread: 223 on deer

Originally Posted by John Duxbury

so, again, the 55 grain in the .223 is too little and not enough gun for deer, whereas the heavier fast twist 70 - 80 grain bullets make the .223 as good as the larger calibers? Is this where we are at with the .223 now?

Because it thats where we are at then I am a bit disappointed.

No. I think the first is better for experienced shooters who have the time and ability to place their shots carefully, or choose not too shoot. The last is a bad interpretation.

Today my wife showed me how to use Google Gemini to create quite complex financial forecasts, capital allocations, retirement models, property buying/building/renting etc. it is fair to say I was blown away how quickly we covered a great deal of ground. I reckon we did in one and a half hours was it would’ve taken me a full day if I was starting with a blank sheet of paper.

So I thought I would ask Gemini a question. Gemini, is the .223 Remington a suitable cartridge for deer hunting?

The TLDR version is Gemini says exactly the same as us, except in about 8 seconds, not 2,746 posts over 5 years. But it’s wrong about bullet types.

Who knew?

Gemini, is the 223 Remington cartridge Suitable for deer hunting?

The .223 Remington cartridge is a subject of debate among deer hunters, but the general consensus is that it is **suitable for deer hunting under specific conditions and with the right ammunition.**

Here's a breakdown of the key factors to consider:

### Legality
First and foremost, check your local and state hunting regulations. Many states have specific laws regarding the minimum caliber, bullet weight, or muzzle energy required for hunting deer. Some states prohibit the use of .22-caliber cartridges altogether.

### Pros and Cons
**Advantages:**
* **Low Recoil:** The .223 has minimal kick, making it easy to shoot accurately. This is a significant benefit for new hunters, youth, or anyone who is sensitive to recoil.
* **Affordability and Availability:** .223 ammunition and rifles are widely available and relatively inexpensive, which allows for more practice. Increased practice leads to better shot placement, which is critical for a humane kill.
* **Accuracy:** The cartridge is known for its precision and flat trajectory, especially at shorter ranges.

**Disadvantages:**
* **Limited Power:** The .223 lacks the energy and "knockdown power" of larger, traditional deer cartridges like the .308 Winchester or .270 Winchester.
* **Shorter Effective Range:** The .223's energy diminishes quickly, making it less effective for shots beyond 200 yards. It's best used for close to mid-range hunting in areas like dense woods.
* **Bullet Performance:** Lighter, varmint-style bullets can be a liability. They may fragment on impact without penetrating deep enough to reach vital organs.
* **Wind Sensitivity:** The lightweight bullets of the .223 are more susceptible to wind drift, which can affect accuracy at longer distances.

### The Right Ammunition and Shot Placement
The success of using a .223 for deer hunting hinges on two things:

1. **Proper Bullets:** Do not use bullets designed for varmint hunting (e.g., highly frangible bullets like the V-Max). You need a bullet specifically designed for medium-sized game. Look for bullets that are heavier (60-77 grains) and feature controlled expansion, deep penetration, and weight retention. Examples of suitable bullet types include:
* **Bonded soft points:** The lead core is bonded to the copper jacket to prevent fragmentation and ensure deep penetration.
* **Partitioned bullets:** These have a partition that separates the front and back of the bullet, allowing the front to expand while the rear maintains its integrity for penetration.
* **Monolithic copper bullets:** Solid copper bullets that expand consistently and retain almost all of their weight.

2. **Precise Shot Placement:** With the .223, there is little room for error. A shot to a deer's vital organs (heart and lungs) is essential for a quick, humane kill. A broadside shot, just behind the shoulder, is the most ideal. Avoid quartering-to or frontal shots, as the bullet may not have the energy to break through heavy bone.

In conclusion, the .223 Remington can be a very effective deer cartridge in the hands of a responsible hunter who understands its limitations. It's a viable option for hunting smaller deer at close ranges, provided you use high-quality, purpose-built hunting ammunition and are confident in your ability to make a precise shot. However, if you are new to hunting or anticipate taking shots at longer distances or on larger-bodied deer, a larger caliber might be a more forgiving and ethical choice.

Why be on the boards? If you dismiss ongoing discussion? I dont see the point.

Gemini Is basing its opinion off of conversations just like ours. Probably it used this one as part.

Originally Posted by whanahuia

Why be on the boards? If you dismiss ongoing discussion? I dont see the point.

Gemini Is basing its opinion off of conversations just like ours. Probably it used this one as part.

I think you may have temporarily mislaid your sense of humor. Or at least it’s just different to mine.

Originally Posted by whanahuia

No. I think the first is better for experienced shooters who have the time and ability to place their shots carefully, or choose not too shoot. The last is a bad interpretation.

@whanahuia And for less experienced hunters?

Originally Posted by Oldbloke

@whanahuia And for less experienced hunters?

How long an answer do you want?

Im becoming comfortable with what's been shown and position put from the heavy and fast twist 223 guys, as I said as an ethical place to draw a line. But really If I were advising a less experienced hunter I would be asking them a range of questions like, do you reload? Standard issue firearm? what do your family or mates use?

It's unlikely under most circumstances to be a 223. Most likely to be a good old fashioned standard cartridge based on the 30/03/06 case

Originally Posted by Flyblown

I think you may have temporarily mislaid your sense of humor. Or at least it’s just different to mine.

Correct. I didn't pick any humour in it at all.

Bit of a side track from the discussion. TMK vs ELDM, what are you experienced guys thoughts on each. Our friend Form swears by the TMKs, I see most people on here are using ELDM. ELDM seems to be easier to get hold of, and cheaper. I’ve read that TMK is much less fussy with seating depth, and easier to load for. I’m considering dipping my toes into the reloading game, as heavy factory options are pretty slim….

ELDM for me, purely for the reasons of availability and price.
The TMK might possibly be better but there's no doubt the ELDM does a great job

Originally Posted by whanahuia

How long an answer do you want?

Im becoming comfortable with what's been shown and position put from the heavy and fast twist 223 guys, as I said as an ethical place to draw a line. But really If I were advising a less experienced hunter I would be asking them a range of questions like, do you reload? Standard issue firearm? what do your family or mates use?

It's unlikely under most circumstances to be a 223. Most likely to be a good old fashioned standard cartridge based on the 30/03/06 case

After 50+ years of NZ hunting I've recently become comfortable with a 223 and "heavies" for some deer hunting situations, and am up to 7 animals (in a row) with no problems. However there are times that something more powerful is a much better choice . . . As a for example, the wind bucking abilities of the next class of cartridges and up mean taking a 223 out in a big Canterbury type nor-west isn't for me. Likewise for tough to put down animals like Tahr. But it's a personal decision, like all hunting ethics are

Yep that's when the .250 Savage comes out.

Originally Posted by Tentman

After 50+ years of NZ hunting I've recently become comfortable with a 223 and "heavies" for some deer hunting situations, and am up to 7 animals (in a row) with no problems. However there are times that something more powerful is a much better choice . . . As a for example, the wind bucking abilities of the next class of cartridges and up mean taking a 223 out in a big Canterbury type nor-west isn't for me. Likewise for tough to put down animals like Tahr. But it's a personal decision, like all hunting ethics are

Yep I think thats sensible!

Another trip with the 223 running 80gr ELD-M.
Shot this stag of the off the top of a bluff system and dropped about 300m breaking a few bones. The shot was 474m and shot off a bipod, because the recoil is so light I got 2 shots into him just so he didn’t run away.



Spotted this stag 1.6 km away and cut the distance to 419m was no flat area to shoot prone so shoot off the walking poles and rolled him on the shot. The 80 grainers sure do hit them harder that a 55gr.

Great shooting.

As a strunny little 17yo woodsman 1981, I walked into a shop in Rotorua called Pack & Rifle, amazing shop so many rifles. Questioned me I said I want a 222 -----guy behind the counter said, what are you going to shoot? Deer I said, he swiftly advised me that was 222 was too small & I would end up wounding more deer than I could count.
So he bullshitted me showing this tiny 308 compaired to a 303 case & so off I went with Ruger M1 308. His name was Rex Forester and with in a fortnight I was back saying feck me, way too much. So sold me a wakamole lee loading kit, some powder & primers, lighter 150 speer hotcor projectiles & so handloading & it's benefits began. He gave me some great advise getting started, not a clue who he was, quiety spoken, Great Guy.