Thread: the OFF TOPIC to Stags shot 21 (discussion of wild animal management)

Subsidised access flights for hunters are unfortunately very poor management economics compared to subsidised WARO, especially for deer more so than tahr or goats.

the idea of a subsidised flight if targeting hinds sounds AWESOME.....
the idea of being able to fly in to areas of high population needing more deer taken sounds AWESOME
being able to know WHERE these areas needing attention ACTUALLY ARE is long overdue.....
way back in 1900 and nuts n bolts..the NZFS built loads of tracks into the back country to encourage folks to get out and use it....... in out time poor modern world,knowledge is king.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

the idea of a subsidised flight if targeting hinds sounds AWESOME.....
the idea of being able to fly in to areas of high population needing more deer taken sounds AWESOME
being able to know WHERE these areas needing attention ACTUALLY ARE is long overdue.....
way back in 1900 and nuts n bolts..the NZFS built loads of tracks into the back country to encourage folks to get out and use it....... in out time poor modern world,knowledge is king.

I think people are pretty open about these areas ie pretty much everywhere near the divide in Canterbury, but the tendency still seems to be to target stags. Subsidized flights are hard as the extra money has to come from somewhere. So subsidizing WARO is way easier than flights for hunters as the sale of recovered meat partially covers the cost of helicopter hours whereas there is no kickback from flying in rec hunters. Heli operators aren't charity's. The best bet currently for subsidized flight are through the likes of the Sika Foundation who already do these up north.

I dont know if you saw my post about Amuri trying to do a trip for 4 groups of four all leaving from windy point to save them traveling back to base on each trip saving a bunch of flight time. I think they could get prices down to about 4-500 per person for each of the 16 people including flying out 2 deer per person for a total of 32 deer. NZDA North Canty I believe were going to subsidize half bringing the price down to 2-250 per person which is bloody good. It fell apart though I think due to not being able to organise 16 people.

once upon a time when you got your 2 week permit to hunt an area you turned it over and filled in a kill return....BUT folks didnt trust DOC so they wouldnt fill them in....we had nice chap from DOC at a NZDA meeting in Timaru...I looked at figures for previous year from my favourite hunting block and informed him...I have shot half the deer and ALL the chammy from that block according to your figures...and Im not that good of hunter...soon afterwards the permit system changed.

my point is people tell lies because of lack of trust....
the fear the cullers or WARO will be sent in if numbers look too high mean they will under report kills..lots of kills must mean lots of animals....
how you combat this Im not sure.MAYBE a token $10 for left jawbone????? with 2-3 random higher prize draws yearly....might get buy in....

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

once upon a time when you got your 2 week permit to hunt an area you turned it over and filled in a kill return....BUT folks didnt trust DOC so they wouldnt fill them in....we had nice chap from DOC at a NZDA meeting in Timaru...I looked at figures for previous year from my favourite hunting block and informed him...I have shot half the deer and ALL the chammy from that block according to your figures...and Im not that good of hunter...soon afterwards the permit system changed.

my point is people tell lies because of lack of trust....
the fear the cullers or WARO will be sent in if numbers look too high mean they will under report kills..lots of kills must mean lots of animals....
how you combat this Im not sure.MAYBE a token $10 for left jawbone????? with 2-3 random higher prize draws yearly....might get buy in....

It's difficult to overcome 90 years of distrust and poor relationships between hunters and the various agencies culminating in DOC that have been charged with managing wild animals. Hunter led groups e.g. GAC and NZDA advocating in favour of good data collection is one way forward. Simply DOC needs to understand land use in order to manage the land well, this includes hunter effort and take.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

once upon a time when you got your 2 week permit to hunt an area you turned it over and filled in a kill return....BUT folks didnt trust DOC so they wouldnt fill them in....we had nice chap from DOC at a NZDA meeting in Timaru...I looked at figures for previous year from my favourite hunting block and informed him...I have shot half the deer and ALL the chammy from that block according to your figures...and Im not that good of hunter...soon afterwards the permit system changed.

my point is people tell lies because of lack of trust....
the fear the cullers or WARO will be sent in if numbers look too high mean they will under report kills..lots of kills must mean lots of animals....
how you combat this Im not sure.MAYBE a token $10 for left jawbone????? with 2-3 random higher prize draws yearly....might get buy in....

I too thought some payment for jaws etc. The issue is too low and noone bothers and high enough and you will start getting people abuse it by either shooting the shit out of areas which isnt nessasarily what we want or the more obvious is that guys start smashing big numbers on farms etc and claiming its public land etc.

Ive heard same argument against possum bounty...but at end of day,a dead animal,no matter where it comes from is one less out there to breed.

I think ill cut and paste two or three posts from a couple of different people and start a new thread calling it: Stag tag’s, possums 101, Rakaia and Te Urewera comparisons, stag management and other bits of useless shit.


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Originally Posted by Danny

I think ill cut and paste two or three posts from a couple of different people and start a new thread calling it: Stag tag’s, possums 101, Rakaia and Te Urewera comparisons, stag management and other bits of useless shit.


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I am sure that your invitation to join MENSA will be in the mail promptly

Originally Posted by Danny

I think ill cut and paste two or three posts from a couple of different people and start a new thread calling it: Stag tag’s, possums 101, Rakaia and Te Urewera comparisons, stag management and other bits of useless shit.


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I think this post falls pretty well under the last catagory don't forget to include it. ��

Originally Posted by hunt08

One thing I find funny bot all this tag bull shit tag talk is over in USA the elk & deer have natural predators they will get down on a lot of the new born animals a year i betvthe bear dosnt go oo i cant eat you your a male in New Zealanders the only predator is us if you guys want a trophy park form your on syndicate & buy your owne land & do what you want course most of the hunters ant going pay for tags & will go shoot what they want when they want stop trying to turn the public land into the hunting ground for the rich I know I couldn't afford to buy tags & we live on venison I shoot bot 15 -20 deer & pigs of doc land a year

Yeah this is a bit head in the Sandish really mate, i apprecate ya opinion but sheesh, keep it in the shearing shed... theres always guna be slight imperfections in which the cocky with his 200 deer will get upset about, but on private, he could do what he wants with those 200 deer.... an thus You wouldnt need togo into Doc,, unless of course, You had ya Stag tag...... to kill Ya 4pt velvety.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

the idea of a subsidised flight if targeting hinds sounds AWESOME.....
the idea of being able to fly in to areas of high population needing more deer taken sounds AWESOME
being able to know WHERE these areas needing attention ACTUALLY ARE is long overdue.....
way back in 1900 and nuts n bolts..the NZFS built loads of tracks into the back country to encourage folks to get out and use it....... in out time poor modern world,knowledge is king.

Yeah from the Deer mobs more targetted areas for Rec hunters to target the problematic areas- that should happen here in Aus, instead the deer mobs just inform us when an where is closed for Culling purposes.. Reads, no public access for killing of recreational game. no sense made.

Originally Posted by Danny

I think ill cut and paste two or three posts from a couple of different people and start a new thread calling it: Stag tag’s, possums 101, Rakaia and Te Urewera comparisons, stag management and other bits of useless shit.


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Thats your opinion, No interest, Peace out fella........ one of the best things about the internet is discussion...... this discussion is one of the best threads ive read on this forum in 12 years............

its great to see like 5 people comment, an most likely the other 4000 members just turn their nose up an "possibly paying for a tag" or "shooting hinds for the public perception" , ya dont often see 15 stags out feeding on Joes crop........... might see 1-2 with a Dozen hinds though.... Shoot a few of old mates grass Easters for him, now Farmer Joe doesnt see 15 deer each morning and tell DoC to do something about his deer........

theres to much to requote , ive been away a few days and this thread has taken off, so much goodness to read and try work out in your own time, seems alot of others have done alot of thinkin about these matters, an those guys should be pushing into their NZDA, or whatever assosc , to chime in.

too many old blokes in the mix these days, things havnt worked for 50 years, so its time to change for the future...

or we will be here in 10 years asking whos still got a LEver action under their bed........... an where the Fk is the "stags" cos can only find spikes..... or
scrubby 8s" and only the Race to Velvet will be 6 inch Softys off the coronet... YEAH got my mature stag.

hooroo

keep it up , good work Stocky on trying to level headedly, educate or make some things clearer for those unable.

Some quite informative posts here.

Don’t want to be the pedantic nana here but no one called one a cunt...yet. Just a voiced opinion however misguided, misjudged blah blah.

Also not cool to pick on people’s grammar, punctuation etc etc. Yes I know it makes it harder to read/understand but sure we can be adults about it...

Keep up the good work.

As you were


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Originally Posted by tiroahunta

Don’t want to be the pedantic nana here but no one called one a cunt...yet.

A good and factually correct point.

Would the following work as a proposal: Trophy producing areas are identified - for example the Rakaia to Whitcomb pass. To hunt these blocks a special 'Managed Trophy Animal' annual permit is required costing fifty dollars. The permit must be carried and hunting in the area without a permit will incur a fine of five thousand dollars. Strict conditions will apply to the types of animals taken and those holding a permit will be required to remove a take of hinds.
I believe that the average meat hunter would not bother when other open access areas are available.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Would the following work as a proposal: Trophy producing areas are identified - for example the Rakaia to Whitcomb pass. To hunt these blocks a special 'Managed Trophy Animal' annual permit is required costing fifty dollars. The permit must be carried and hunting in the area without a permit will incur a fine of five thousand dollars. Strict conditions will apply to the types of animals taken and those holding a permit will be required to remove a take of hinds.
I believe that the average meat hunter would not bother when other open access areas are available.

It could work, and is actually probably technically possible under current legislation, if:

You included an evidence based management plan to improve ecological outcomes over the current management, and it passed scrutiny by DOCs technical advisors, it would likely need to include detail of management tools, expected results supported by evidence, monitoring to determine outcomes, contingencies if management tools failed to meet outcomes, etc

The legal aspects of the plan passed scrutiny (And probably legal challenge from Green Groups) under variously the Wild Animal Control Act, the Conservation Act, the Reserves Act, various Conservation Management Strategies, etc.

Due process was followed in implementing it allowing consultation with the correct parties, and there was adequate social license to manage an area with the word "trophy" within a city block of the name

You could get buy in from the right people of influence to actually agree to implement it

It could generate enough revenue to cover the cost of administering, ensuring compliance, etc

There weren't any risks to DOC legally, ecologically, financially, or in terms of losing control of management if it failed

Commercial interests (WARO) weren't influential enough to shut it down




I still think that starting from a trophy based perspective is putting the cart before the horse.