Thread: the OFF TOPIC to Stags shot 21 (discussion of wild animal management)

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

What is the best alternative to the status quo ??

Really need to define what sort of outcome(s) you want to achieve first

Originally Posted by bigbear

So hey kiwi hunter you shoot all the females but can you leave any heads/horns with potential for some foreign to come shoot, hold on wasn't it foreigners that all so pushed up house prices and fucked that for the average kiwis??
the average kiwi want be able to hunt in NZ on public land once a fee is involved.
Look at how many kiwi hunters miss out on ballots year after year to foreigners. If anything it should be draw to kiwis first and if there are any left over spots that's when they have the option of been given to a foreign hunter at a high cost
We also set up game parks for foreigners to come shoot animals in this country

I definitely don't agree that should be the case. Foreigners should definitely pay and it the cases of ballots etc they should pay significantly more similar to how it works in the states. Ie in Montana a deer and elk tag combo is about 100 for residents and a bit over 1000 for non residents. The fact of the matter is if we want to work towards healthy game management (whether for population control, ecosystem conservation, or trophy management) we need funding to do it and to do that it means we have to fund it somehow. If you lokk at the states in the US that made it super difficult for non residents to apply all of a sudden they had no funding as the majority of funding comes from non residents.

For NZ my suggestion would be for example if we just charged residents for the 3 month permits $20-30 then made foreigners pay 200-300 for that same permit. Its still a cheap hunt by international standards at that price and unless it reduces international public land hunters by over 10x it wouldn't loose any money vs just charging everyone the same. The issue with ballots is not allowing foreigners to apply its not charging them enough to do so. Ie I think for the Doc managed ballots they should be paying atleast $400 to apply as it will both reduce foreign applicants but likely increase total revenue from foreign applications. The issue is currently the ballots aren't managed well enough to ask that much due to unrestricted hunting the rest of the year. As for Wapiti I think the $130 foreign hunters (to be honest mainly Aussie) pay is way to low. If for example you consider your going to be in the $1000usd range for a tag anywhere else you can chase them public land we should be charging nearer $600-700 per international hunter. If there's a significant issue then set a limit to total international hunters in each ballot ie international hunters can only make up a total of 5-10% of ballots. Its common in the states to do that to ensure residents don't get overrun by non-residents.

I understand your sentiment that we should look after kiwis first but foreigners are a very good opportunity to give up a small portion of ballots etc to gain a significant amount of funding.

And we lastly I've heard the claim a few times that we set up game parks for foreigners to come shoot animals here. That's true to a point but that's a bit disingenuous. The fact is game was introduced to NZ as trophy hunting for wealthy domestic and international hunters from Britain etc so its not some new idea. It was only a population explosion meant it became available to the everyman. Also those coming to hunt public land are not the same as those here chasing big trophy park deer. The difference between nz public and "free range" trophy parks is becoming well known about in the states and those that want a real hunt will either come and do it on public or the likes of some of the genuine free range wild herd hunting. Game parks were created a byproduct of velvet farming and because unregulated hunting meant that it was impossible to reliably find mature stags for international clients in the period of a 7-10 day hunt.

Realistically if people where selfless for say 5 years and no one shot any nice yound stag. It would then be feasible that any area has a genuine chance of getting a great trophy. I think any deer that genuinely 7 plus years of age is a exceptional trophy/achievement. The thing is everyone shooting young stags means we don't see old stags. Even just with 2 slow years of waro and one skipped roar stags numbers and quality have improved significantly.

I get no one wants to be the first to do it as It hurts watching areas I leave stags in get hammered but its similar to the steal or share experiment where 2 party's have a prize pool and they both have to choose to share or steal the prize. If they both choose share they get half each but if the steal and the other shares they get it all, if they both choose to steal however neither get anything. We as hunters are all choosing to steal and as such we are all losing out but not one wants to say share as someone else might get everything.

Originally Posted by Ned

There is some irony there. I recall that DOC changed the survey technique they used in lake Taupo and all of a sudden thought there were less trout. Hence the bag limit reduces from 8 to 3. Then the catch and release took hold. Then the quality of the trout slid as not enough food.

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DOC or fish and game?

Originally Posted by Stocky

DOC or fish and game?

Lake Taupo trout fishery is managed by DOC.
Rest of NZ is fish and game.


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Originally Posted by hunt08

One thing I find funny bot all this tag bull shit tag talk is over in USA the elk & deer have natural predators they will get down on a lot of the new born animals a year i betvthe bear dosnt go oo i cant eat you your a male in New Zealanders the only predator is us if you guys want a trophy park form your on syndicate & buy your owne land & do what you want course most of the hunters ant going pay for tags & will go shoot what they want when they want stop trying to turn the public land into the hunting ground for the rich I know I couldn't afford to buy tags & we live on venison I shoot bot 15 -20 deer & pigs of doc land a year

Yeah this is a bit head in the Sandish really mate, i apprecate ya opinion but sheesh, keep it in the shearing shed... theres always guna be slight imperfections in which the cocky with his 200 deer will get upset about, but on private, he could do what he wants with those 200 deer.... an thus You wouldnt need togo into Doc,, unless of course, You had ya Stag tag...... to kill Ya 4pt velvety.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

the idea of a subsidised flight if targeting hinds sounds AWESOME.....
the idea of being able to fly in to areas of high population needing more deer taken sounds AWESOME
being able to know WHERE these areas needing attention ACTUALLY ARE is long overdue.....
way back in 1900 and nuts n bolts..the NZFS built loads of tracks into the back country to encourage folks to get out and use it....... in out time poor modern world,knowledge is king.

Yeah from the Deer mobs more targetted areas for Rec hunters to target the problematic areas- that should happen here in Aus, instead the deer mobs just inform us when an where is closed for Culling purposes.. Reads, no public access for killing of recreational game. no sense made.

Originally Posted by Danny

I think ill cut and paste two or three posts from a couple of different people and start a new thread calling it: Stag tag’s, possums 101, Rakaia and Te Urewera comparisons, stag management and other bits of useless shit.


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Thats your opinion, No interest, Peace out fella........ one of the best things about the internet is discussion...... this discussion is one of the best threads ive read on this forum in 12 years............

its great to see like 5 people comment, an most likely the other 4000 members just turn their nose up an "possibly paying for a tag" or "shooting hinds for the public perception" , ya dont often see 15 stags out feeding on Joes crop........... might see 1-2 with a Dozen hinds though.... Shoot a few of old mates grass Easters for him, now Farmer Joe doesnt see 15 deer each morning and tell DoC to do something about his deer........

theres to much to requote , ive been away a few days and this thread has taken off, so much goodness to read and try work out in your own time, seems alot of others have done alot of thinkin about these matters, an those guys should be pushing into their NZDA, or whatever assosc , to chime in.

too many old blokes in the mix these days, things havnt worked for 50 years, so its time to change for the future...

or we will be here in 10 years asking whos still got a LEver action under their bed........... an where the Fk is the "stags" cos can only find spikes..... or
scrubby 8s" and only the Race to Velvet will be 6 inch Softys off the coronet... YEAH got my mature stag.

hooroo

keep it up , good work Stocky on trying to level headedly, educate or make some things clearer for those unable.

RE wapiti, yeha Foreigners to pay more.
But now we are Crying about an Aussie who shoots a big Wap, whilst the locals have shot a heap of "red cross" shit and didnt get a wap....

you could of shot a Wap, harder hunting etc etc, chose to kill a Red.

why? perhaps you are a conservation hunter who has the interest of the Wapiti in ya mind....
or ya a killer, cos ya killed ya Wap in the bugle during the ballot, 2nd day in, cos ya were scared ya might not get another chance

Originally Posted by Ftx325

I for one , and have also drilled into the kids , shoot only what I can recover.... regardless of the target species , from goats to deer. In fact the only thing we shoot without abiding that rule is possums , but even then we still take the meat whenever possible for the dog . Same with rabbits , always take the meat .
I don't believe in knocking over all and sundry just because I can , including goats .
All my hunting is on foot so , unless it's goats which I can generally manage two animals worth of meat , it's one animal only .
There was a private block we used to hunt goat and fallow that changed hands and we were still allowed to hunt during the changeover . The new owner wanted to plant trees so instigated a goat cull .
I went in after with my family and the carnage was truly heartbreaking . Rotting carcasses all over the hill , hundreds of them .
Both the kids and Mrs FTX wept at the sight .
I understand why it was done but I couldn't do that job .
All that life wasted and so much meat left to rot on the hill . Call me a pussy but that goes against everything I believe in . I was also pleased my kids had that reaction as it showed that they have taken to heart all I have tried to instill in them about respecting life and compassion and why I hunt by my rules .

If the confiscation of semi autos achieve anything, I hope that discriminate and proper hunting techniques emerge from it. Spray and pray type shooting is never okay when shooting animals, in my opinion.

Having re read all 12 pages i have come to the conclusion that we as hunters are going to bear the responsibility of game animal management and we must guard against the erosion of our right to hunt or the social licence to hunt.
So how do we fund study into the ecological impacts of game animals and the recommended carrying capacity of certain areas? How do we educate hunters to increase their hind harvest?
I myself will double my hind harvest and recover choicer cuts only even though i will be judged by many.

Originally Posted by Tahr

Of course too, DOC are constrained by the their legislative framework (and their ministers's directions). As it is, some things are simply impossible.

Yes, but it seems that they manage to be more than a little selective about the application of that too......remember FMC bollocking DoC for allowing the number of landings on the Ngapunatoru plaueau, which was apparently in breach of their statutory plans?

Or the previous Ministers repeated assertions that the Tahr Plan allowed for a maximum population of 10 000.......that was correct, but that plan also required review's, but that wasn't going to happen.

I prefer the view that DoC will rely on the restrictions available in the legislation and their plans when it suits them, and when it doesn't they will try hard to find wriggle room.

Originally Posted by Ned

Lake Taupo trout fishery is managed by DOC.
Rest of NZ is fish and game.


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Good to know. Is that to do with the fact its on a different license etc?

Was glad to see a similar message to this thread put forward on last night's NZ Hunter episode.

Originally Posted by gimp

Really need to define what sort of outcome(s) you want to achieve first

The outcome I would like to see is as follows:
A balanced age group population of deer with a good proportion of trophy quality and aged stags in those few areas that can produce them.
The current situation is that during periods of high feral venison prices the Waro operators go silly and cash in shooting every deer they can find. During periods of normal pricing they still do annual fly throughs targeting stags.
This results in the deer population becoming unbalanced as Waro creams off an annual take of stags and in effect runs the wilds like a big hind farm. During periods like right now with low venison returns, hunters rush off to trophy producing areas in the hope of beating the choppers and bagging a trophy. During periods of high venison returns, there is no point in going to those areas as the stags have been shot in velvet.
In the summer the stags and hinds occupy separate habitats and it is easy for a machine to target stags by flying the stag areas. Stags are worth more not just because of greater carcass weight but also because of by-products - pizzle, sinew, velvet
The outcome that I would like could be easily attained by putting annual area take limits on Waro - for example remove 200 hinds and no stags for Ashburton North

Originally Posted by gimp

Really need to define what sort of outcome(s) you want to achieve first

The outcome I would like to see is as follows:
A balanced age group population of deer with a good proportion of trophy quality and aged stags in those few areas that can produce them.
The current situation is that during periods of high feral venison prices the Waro operators go silly and cash in shooting every deer they can find. During periods of normal pricing they still do annual fly throughs targeting stags.
This results in the deer population becoming unbalanced as Waro creams off an annual take of stags and in effect runs the wilds like a big hind farm. During periods like right now with low venison returns, hunters rush off to trophy producing areas in the hope of beating the choppers and bagging a trophy. During periods of high venison returns, there is no point in going to those areas as the stags have been shot in velvet.
In the summer the stags and hinds occupy separate habitats and it is easy for a machine to target stags by flying the stag areas. Stags are worth more not just because of greater carcass weight but also because of by-products - pizzle, sinew, velvet
The outcome that I would like could be easily attained by putting annual area take limits on Waro - for example remove 200 hinds and no stags for Mount Hutt / Nth Ashburton

Sorry for double post above. The delete button never works and removing all content from the double post doesn't work.
But back on topic, Waro can make a justifiable argument that each deer they take has a nett export income value of five hundred dollars for the country, whereas each animal taken by recreational hunters results in no nett gain apart from the offset of meat not bought at the supermarket by hunters being available for export.
What the above means to me is that recreational hunting needs to result in a better outcome for the country than Waro and that the Waro income is a baseline for setting a trophy fee for overseas hunters.
Those readers opposed to any fee might consider that the stags they want to shoot are already being sold to overseas buyers anyway - via Waro

Originally Posted by bigbear

So hey kiwi hunter you shoot all the females but can you leave any heads/horns with potential for some foreign to come shoot, hold on wasn't it foreigners that all so pushed up house prices and fucked that for the average kiwis??
the average kiwi want be able to hunt in NZ on public land once a fee is involved.
Look at how many kiwi hunters miss out on ballots year after year to foreigners. If anything it should be draw to kiwis first and if there are any left over spots that's when they have the option of been given to a foreign hunter at a high cost
We also set up game parks for foreigners to come shoot animals in this country

I 100% agree with you that's what would happen or the other thing that would be a high chance of happening is the animal groups will stop hunting couse they against hunting for trophyies & your saving the doc land for trophy hunting & they will work away at the government & public here & oversees & that's probably where the big push would come from ie if you want us to keep buying your meat you have to stop hunting for trophies & hunting will come to an end look at the live shipping ban but when hunting for meat it has a better understanding with the rest of the public