Thread: the OFF TOPIC to Stags shot 21 (discussion of wild animal management)

Over Flow from the Stags thread Regarding Ethics during the Roar, Future of Stags and Meat..................


Go over there to check it out an get up to speed, spill ya beans over here.

Hooroo

Originally Posted by Stocky

Um what most of that is unreadable but I'll reply to what I can.

No shit young stags get shot Everywhere I just saw a guy shot 9 stags out of Lewis almost all young (too young to realistically assess quality unless you have a trained eye) and didn't take any meat or shoot any hinds...

Poison isn't used to control deer (I'm 99% certain it's illegal to directly target deer with 1080 (they can be bykill)) so numbers don't lead to poison it happens anyway.

Then your bragging about hammering stags and having a sook and threatening to go waste a bunch of deer and meat because someone brought up their opinion on a public forum. What a bloody ninny. I just brought up my POV. I didnt dictate what anyone can do I have no right too but I have every right to bring up the discussion with which anyone can do with as they wish. Hell I think you may find I openly said he's done more to control population that I have for sure. I just think its nice to leave stags to grow to the point they can mature as it makes a far better trophy (even the ones with poorer genes) that a rack of 50 plus toddlers hanging in the shed unappreciated.

Originally Posted by Danny

Does it actually matter what anyone thinks when someone shoots an animal? Like who fn cares.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah to a Degree now days i think it Does and Should be in the forethought of more hunters minds in those moments before pulling the trigger.
I think its good to discuss this kind of topic as opposed to single out someone for shootin a heap of shit.

I've been there as a young fella uneducated in the modern day of plethora of deer and social media, but i am very quickly learning that is Mostly all Negative for anything that has regard to "Deer herd health/ population" "Trophy deer or Deer with Antlers of somewhat SIZE- not perfect Record book trophies but old age heavy antlered Animals" , Appreciating the animal and the Hunt, Appreciating the effort it takes for that Anmimal in which we / I have strong like and connection to, takes to Grow its antlers each year and Dodge more and more of Us getting "Hungrier and Hungrier each year".....
i've watched large and small areas go to absolute shit genetically and any potential to "mount" a trophy that is "close" to the "Size" representive of that species..... Why? because uneducated hunters think Stags particlarly are Best, shoot the Stags, More Meat and Antlers and Trophy photo and AWESOMENESS.......... an never Touch does unless its desperate measures.. So every aged stag standing with the mob has been taken out and We wonder WTF these "big old deer" are hiding.... they aint.

anyway thats my opinion on that question. cheers.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

I think it does matter from the point that everyone wants to improve their knowledge and judgement of animals, to take an animal they have made a correct call on and to feel good about it. We cant learn without discussing animals that have been photographed. In this thread they are dead.
How did you access your nine to be well past his best ? He is well past anything now
The spiker in Yesmate's post above is exceptional as he says. Those spikers with big clean thick spikes like that are rare and always grow into big clean heads. Shooting the rubbish pencil thin spikers is doing the herds a favour long term. Just look how the Wap herd has improved with a couple of decades of 'Leave the best, shoot the rest' management.

Amen Brother.

Originally Posted by Pongo12

Bloody oath, thats why I only chuck pics up every now and again. Too much dramas otherwise

Nah i dont believe its Dramas, I questioned Your approach and somewhat Ethics in a non direct way, mostly because come the Roar alot of those type hunters come out of the Woodwork and in hindsight, the Deer an particularly Stags ar ein their absolute Weakest moment.... but it is often Spruked as Dominant hunter marks up another Kill....
You mention taking a tonne of Hinds out during Winter, thats actually Great and to me makes me think you are more a better hunter for that.

@Stocky has asked some Awesome Questions and put in some decent food for thought, among others, i tried to snavel a few Comments to quote for now....

No hard feelings but the bottom line is with all you guys mention, 1080, Heli, Venison market, Hunters, Shooters and killers, multiplying each season and we have Clearly just seen what 1 year does to Stags in GENERAL without being Shot due to Govt demand, however Australia is a very similiar boat so the time is now to start thinkin about things We do as hunters ourselves as the Overall picture..... hmmm Do i kill that Spiker just because i get 13kg more meat or shoot one of the Seven hinds he is with................ (in back of mind* is that spiker my mates Sons Trophy Royal in 6 years time)

"DEER PROBLEM" directly relates to Hinds eating plants or produce............. not often stags antlers taken bark of a native.

My view is each to their own, theirs plenty of deer and they need knocking back yes the freezer gets filled with meat animals year round I personally haven't shot a stag for 5 years having bagged a beauty and thinking unless it's better I wont but now it's being 5 years and it took 15 years in the first place I'm wanting that seal the deal roar hunt iv probably only got 15 roars left but by no means will I shoot a pup of potential. every wants the 300+ taking some of the lesser potential young ones is not a bad thing doesn't mean it couldnt e a trophy for some one but its average blood gone . In my opinion

Someone should put up the youtube link from the Sika Foundation game management our why. Too stupid to do it myself, but all hunters should watch it and think about it.

Originally Posted by chindit

Someone should put up the youtube link from the Sika Foundation game management our why. Too stupid to do it myself, but all hunters should watch it and think about it.

i did make a thread about it an ask why it only had 60 or so little views.. perhaps it was 700, but it needed to be seen by every hunter in nz and aus for that matter

Originally Posted by chindit

Someone should put up the youtube link from the Sika Foundation game management our why. Too stupid to do it myself, but all hunters should watch it and think about it.

Yea that's epic il try dig it out

Originally Posted by Kelton

Yea that's epic il try dig it out

https://sikafoundation.co.nz/hind-sight/

I for one , and have also drilled into the kids , shoot only what I can recover.... regardless of the target species , from goats to deer. In fact the only thing we shoot without abiding that rule is possums , but even then we still take the meat whenever possible for the dog . Same with rabbits , always take the meat .
I don't believe in knocking over all and sundry just because I can , including goats .
All my hunting is on foot so , unless it's goats which I can generally manage two animals worth of meat , it's one animal only .
There was a private block we used to hunt goat and fallow that changed hands and we were still allowed to hunt during the changeover . The new owner wanted to plant trees so instigated a goat cull .
I went in after with my family and the carnage was truly heartbreaking . Rotting carcasses all over the hill , hundreds of them .
Both the kids and Mrs FTX wept at the sight .
I understand why it was done but I couldn't do that job .
All that life wasted and so much meat left to rot on the hill . Call me a pussy but that goes against everything I believe in . I was also pleased my kids had that reaction as it showed that they have taken to heart all I have tried to instill in them about respecting life and compassion and why I hunt by my rules .

Originally Posted by Kelton

https://sikafoundation.co.nz/hind-sight/

That's a really excellent insight into the deer population demographics and herd structure.
Very good guide for hunters and what we should be striving to achieve.
The question is when is the best time to be shooting hinds?

I'll preface all following comments.

Just because I have a different view doesn't mean I hold anything against anyone. I grew up on a farm and practical background mostly in NZ but have lots of family in the USA and see the rep the USA gets when realistically the stereotype is a very small portion unrelated to places like rural Montana where I was born. I then went to University where hardly anyone has any practical background or has actually done any work and found it to be a left leaning brainwashing center where opinion is often portrayed as fact. I did well but hated it and felt like I couldn't express view points differing from the uniformed norm because its a quick way to get ostracized. Because of this I dislike opinion stated as fact especially when used as a good sounding excuse not as a genuine reason i.e. pretty much 95% of the latest proposed firearms laws.

I make a point of trying to see everyone's viewpoints and not to single people out. I also enjoy discussion on hard topics as I think this constructive discussion (that I believe has more chance of changing opinions and or even just moderating them) is missing from 95% of society and I like to think hunters on a whole are better than the general population (which may not be true but id like to think it). I try to give credit where its due and am not a believer of writing of individuals as its not productive so I'll express concerns where I see them and give props when I see things I appreciate/agree with.

So if I question you I'm not doing anything but trying to open a dialogue and have a discussion. As with anyone I'm not perfect and sometimes the questions come across as pointed. I do often change my viewpoint on issues based on other giving reasoning I haven't personally thought of.

The reason I think this discussion is important is that so many people nowadays dont say anything because discussing these things can be a little tense (but they dont have to be its just a discussion after all) they just ignore it then you end up with things like that Cardi B Performance at the Grammys being considered empowering women or the school where all the boys where forced to apologize to there females counterparts for rape and sexual assault.

Originally Posted by Kelton

My view is each to their own, theirs plenty of deer and they need knocking back yes the freezer gets filled with meat animals year round I personally haven't shot a stag for 5 years having bagged a beauty and thinking unless it's better I wont but now it's being 5 years and it took 15 years in the first place I'm wanting that seal the deal roar hunt iv probably only got 15 roars left but by no means will I shoot a pup of potential. every wants the 300+ taking some of the lesser potential young ones is not a bad thing doesn't mean it couldnt e a trophy for some one but its average blood gone . In my opinion

I agree for the most part. We can all make our own decisions. But its definitely hard for the guy that decides to leave young stags in an area he hunts on a regular basis to grow to see someone come and shot a bunch of young stags in that area. Yes you can make your own decisions but one selfish choice can literally undo years of restraint by another (surely this is understandably hard to swallow). I dont think 80% of hunters can assess a good stag before its 4 or 5 years of age (i would probably class myself as an average judge in that i have good stock sense for age from farming and i have tried to research it but lacking hard data from actually killing stags id definitely not call myself a good judge) at which point a lot would shoot it as its the oldest stags they have actually laid eyes on. I dont think unless you know what your doing or there's obvious issue ie a clearly very old stag thats shit or one with antler deformities that you should cull animals because they are "poor genetics".

I work on the same logic as you with on public land i will only shoot a clearly mature animal regardless of trophy quality ie a large 8 or a switch or a stag that is a PB or better than what I have already taken which now means a mid 30s length 12 (not a mature animal but one I am proud of and raised the bar in what I will target. On private land I believe do what you want or the landowner wants.

Stags dont help population control so I make a point of shooting hinds whenever possible. This doesn't always work out because I'm am trying to find a mature red stag so dont want to disturb areas but between October to January I usually shot 4 or 5 hinds mixed in with my cham and tahr hunting. I could and probably should shoot more hinds even if I cant take all the meat due to being early in the trip during summer and hunting primarily solo. I do try to work on this as i see it as hunters duties to try control population or just accept that we will see a Tahr cull 2.0 occur.

I think it also depends where you live. Some herds are not known to produce trophy heads. Te Urewera and Kaimais for example.
I love hunting roaring stags but I'm really just a meat hunter. One stag is plenty to fill my freezer.
In truth I'm going to probably shoot the first deer I come across.
The stag I shot with my son last week was only a 6 pointer but the memory of being able to share the moment is priceless and that head will have pride of place in his room. So I guess I'm saying each to his own and trophy's are in the eye of the beholder.

Originally Posted by Chur Bay

I think it also depends where you live. Some herds are not known to produce trophy heads. Te Urewera and Kaimais for example.
I love hunting roaring stags but I'm really just a meat hunter. One stag is plenty to fill my freezer.
In truth I'm going to probably shoot the first deer I come across.
The stag I shot with my son last week was only a 6 pointer but the memory of being able to share the moment is priceless and that head will have pride of place in his room. So I guess I'm saying each to his own and trophy's are in the eye of the beholder.

I agree in a sense but a poor genetic 8 year olds still way more impressive than a shit genetics 2 year old. I think a roaring stag a year isn't unreasonable but I'm just not into shooting young stags as if i can get a photo in close I could have shot it i dont need it on my wall.

As for hunting with your son i think first animals etc or new hunters can have way more leeway as they need it to get stuck in and learn. Its why unless I see massive death piles i wont call out an individual for shooting an animal (I will however correct someone calling a 3 year old mature or a 2 year old a scrubber)(Actually I lie i have called someone out for flying into the head in one of the most famous west cost red deer hunting catchments and smoking over a bunch of 2 and 3 year old stags as i was in a particularly bad mood at the time). I personally see huge "trophy" potential in all stags for young children getting into hunting as they will appreciate these animals as much as we might a huge 12. I think in that case the potential lost is outweighed by the enthusiasm gained by new budding hunters helping with recruitment.

I have a slightly skewed view being based in Canterbury as almost all the area here has potential to through a ripper with the Poulter and Rakaia herds taking prevalence on the areas I hunt.

Even just in our responsibility to try and keep populations under control we should be trying to target hinds where ever possible and definitely turning down hinds to shoot young stags. Killing the first animal you see when time limited i have less problems understanding.

the last couple of issues of major magazines have had good articles on managing herd structure for the benifit of all....took a bit to read through it...but it does make sense once you stop to think about it.....when you shoot a stag you remove 1 unit period....thats its total impact on population
when you shoot a hind you also remove all her possible fawns in future years...so maybe 5-6 units in total
lots of stags means lots of roaring going on and big competition for hinds...the big boys get to root and the younguns dont get a look in
lots of hinds means the few stags around are pretty much guaranteed to pass on genes no matter how good they are...and they need not roar as know where the girls are. I am a meat hunter and shoot what deer I see....have let a few stags walk when heads in velvet...and my wife gives me absolute arseholes about "looking at pretty antlers" instead of filling freezer...but like has been said above,it might be someone elses head of a lifetime or first stag...so bugger it,I will find something else.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

the last couple of issues of major magazines have had good articles on managing herd structure for the benifit of all....took a bit to read through it...but it does make sense once you stop to think about it.....when you shoot a stag you remove 1 unit period....thats its total impact on population
when you shoot a hind you also remove all her possible fawns in future years...so maybe 5-6 units in total
lots of stags means lots of roaring going on and big competition for hinds...the big boys get to root and the younguns dont get a look in
lots of hinds means the few stags around are pretty much guaranteed to pass on genes no matter how good they are...and they need not roar as know where the girls are. I am a meat hunter and shoot what deer I see....have let a few stags walk when heads in velvet...and my wife gives me absolute arseholes about "looking at pretty antlers" instead of filling freezer...but like has been said above,it might be someone elses head of a lifetime or first stag...so bugger it, I will find something else.

It can be a hard change but these are the points that swayed me early. Plus when number get high there can be plenty of food about all year till that winter pinch hits and then animals get strained for nutrition meaning poorer fawns being produced (reduced potential) and stasg struglle to gain the condition back again leading to reduced quality.

I see it as for a small inconvience of not shooting some young stags we get the improved benefits of better population control (help to stop things the tahr cull happening), better quality stags (imagine what 4 or 5 years of low stag harvest would do for the general stag population. Look at some of the Wapiti come out this year), and arguably better meat quality by shooting hinds.

Shooting females makes sense, but in the wider picture it’s harder to achieve than it sounds.
In spring, often the easy animals are the spikers. In summer the females have fawns at foot, so many hunters avoid them at this time of year. Autumn and again the males are the easier animals. Winter and it’s wet and cold and many people hunt less or not at all.

I shoot well more females than males . Admittedly that generally comes down to opportunity but given a choice between a spiker and a hind/doe I will take the female .
(Easier to carry too....lazy bastard , I know) .
That said , with fawn is a definate no-no .
I tend to think that the spiker could be someone's future magnificent trophy also..... hopefully mine , lol .