Thread: the OFF TOPIC to Stags shot 21 (discussion of wild animal management)

Originally Posted by Ftx325

I shoot well more females than males . Admittedly that generally comes down to opportunity but given a choice between a spiker and a hind/doe I will take the female .
(Easier to carry too....lazy bastard , I know) .
That said , with fawn is a definate no-no .
I tend to think that the spiker could be someone's future magnificent trophy also..... hopefully mine , lol .

Yeh I find hunting solo so much id be lying if I got all the meat out on any deer in some of the places i push back into to try find a mature stag. Steep hills and big packs lead to screwed bodies. As id like to still be hunting when I'm as old as some of you buggers on here I make a point of limiting pack weight when the country is very steep but more so if there's a significant descent as I already have a bad knee. If i cant even take a full hind why take a stag for meat as its just more waste.

Originally Posted by Cigar

Shooting females makes sense, but in the wider picture it’s harder to achieve than it sounds.
In spring, often the easy animals are the spikers. In summer the females have fawns at foot, so many hunters avoid them at this time of year. Autumn and again the males are the easier animals. Winter and it’s wet and cold and many people hunt less or not at all.

Good points some I struggled with earlier in my hunting career. I shoots hinds while pregnant as I can ensure a quick death of the fawn and realistically they are pregnant 230 days a year. I have contemplated shooting fawns then hinds but realistically I cant make gender calls so I haven't so far (but I cant id unborn hinds so will likely shoot fawns if I'm pretty certain i can get the hind as well). I've never had any trips where I haven't seen more hinds than stags. Yes they might not be first but i more often than not see hind populations in the 5:1 + ratio compared to stags if i just look a little bit longer. Bush hunting is obviosuly a bit different as id say bush hunters except in the roar are far less picky than tops hunters.

I got 40 kg of meat from last week's stag. It's all about the meat bro

Correct. It's harder to be selective when you are bush hunting as you don't have that luxury of time. For a lot of NI hunters it's mostly bush hunting.

Originally Posted by Chur Bay

Correct. It's harder to be selective when you are bush hunting as you don't have that luxury of time. For a lot of NI hunters it's mostly bush hunting.

Completely understand. Grew up in Rotorua and learnt to hunt up in the Kaimais and Paeroa range.

I get it but in the roar its definitely alot easier to be selective even in the roar as we hunt bush here too this time of year and usually your relatively close and even a few seconds gives you a pretty good indication of mass. No ones expected to get it right shit I've made bad calls in the tops with way more time and expensive glass. I think this is the most important time to be trying to assess age as your way less likely to mistake one of the heap of other hunters if your looking closer than just it's a stag.
And yeah meat it meat mate and 40kgs of it is no joke when you see what it costs at the supermarket. n

I'm not condemning any meat hunting but there's a difference between a stag or two for meat and guys trying to hit Tallys of like 50 stags in one roar. Or shooting multiple young stags in a trip where they can't utilise the meat anyway

The assessment can be done in the bush and in close. when guiding moose in BC and assessing bulls were atleast 48 inchs wide or have 3 points on the brow etc could be down most of the time even in heavy cover. And the guys that elk hunt count points fine in the bugle.

Hunting and guiding in North America opened my eyes up a bit to what's just considered the norm. While their system wouldnt work here some parts could do and do in places like Fiordland. When you can only pick one animal you become far more selective and their compulsory utilisation is nice although not practical here if we want to control numbers. A kill there usually looks like this when your done.

Good call RE the bush hunting, it can be argued too because some guys are calm as an seen plenty up close, others, it is a complete buzz, everythin goes out the windows when ya see those gold sticks move thru the opening of the leaves or bushes etc......... i think we do need to encourage a bit more Camera work or just watch an drum some basic fundamentals in to the younger crew like "two x the head length or antlers" sorta thing (aussie sambar say) Reds in kiwi as mentioned, lots get passed off as scrubbers, with its 2nd head lol, sit that 2nd head next to a 7th head and you can tell the difference in the dark.........

yes its exciting as fuck but the Deer will do that Same shit next year, an hopefully 5 more years, film an boast about it on social media, so easy to do now days the "proof of the pudding/Photo" is now long gone, Trophy photos are skewed these days that 25 inch reds look like 45 inchers from Otago.. 24 inch sambar, 33 inchers, etc.........but hung up in the shed no pride cos only 24, not 30..etc. because its younger. etc.


Touching on the American thing with the meat, i just talked about that shit before to some Canadians , in which i explained a situation i put myself in recently and how different it is to the Canadian culture etc and explained that its stemmed from an also poor culture in Australia!

anywwhooo..... bloody rip snorter Convo! nice to see some cool headed open minded fellas chipping in... discuss dont get distrort.

which brings up another really good point....if someone shoots a deer...any deer and makes effort to recover as much meat as they can....well then fcukin good on them I say......animal has been utilised so not wasted.... taking stuff all off animal close to vechile is very poor form IN MY BOOK....

A comment some where about "look at the wapiti" and how that's been managed. The deer side of things is been managed well with culling of hinds and poor genetic stags.
The people side of things is shit if you ask me. There needs tighter rules put in place around foreign hunters on public land ballot blocks in NZ and in fact all public land.
that's why we started game parks in NZ for was for foreign hunters??

Originally Posted by bigbear

A comment some where about "look at the wapiti" and how that's been managed. The deer side of things is been managed well with culling of hinds and poor genetic stags.
The people side of things is shit if you ask me. There needs tighter rules put in place around foreign hunters on public land ballot blocks in NZ and in fact all public land.
that's why we started game parks in NZ for was for foreign hunters??

Definitely won't find an argument from me. It's happens in the states with non resident hunters. Montana for example make non residents pay 10x the amount to hunt the same things. They often also have quotas ie only a maximum of 10% of the tags got to non residents. This helps as it reduces non resident interest because of price but not by 10x the amount so you actually end up with fewer hunters funding more of the model. The issue is they need it to be open to a larger pool to fund management otherwise we as kiwis will have to pay more to apply to cover costs. Also the people going to fiordland are not the same foreigners going to game parks (which where not made to keep foreigners of public land the resulted as a byproduct of it not being possible to guarantee trophies of historic quality guiding public land and the velvet farming markets. I understand the sentiment as I get a bit pissed every year when I miss the ballots but all these aussies get in.

The thing with Wapiti is they are a small isolated population and realistically it has to be limited as people can't be trusted to do the right thing as shown by general areas with minimal mature males and over population issues. If it was open and eveyone could go in it would quickly degrade to the same as everywhere else. I don't think it's a good model for everywhere but could it cover a few key herds definitely.

This three year old was never going to make a trophy. Looking at the lower head - short tines, tines missing and poorer head than the rest of his peer group. I always look at the lower tines and framing of the head to judge a young stag, tops come with age. Was very heavy though and photos dont do the weight justice

Kill all goats to improve deer habitat.


Shoot hinds if there are more than minimal numbers of deer.


Shoot old stags.


Take as much meat as possible but sometimes shoot to waste is necessary for management in NZ or when hunting difficult access back country walk in.

Originally Posted by gimp

Kill all goats to improve deer habitat.


Shoot hinds if there are more than minimal numbers of deer.


Shoot old stags.


Take as much meat as possible but sometimes shoot to waste is necessary for management in NZ or when hunting difficult access back country walk in.

This is pretty much my mantra nowadays.

Yeh goats breed prolifically. Deer get out of hand at low hunting pressure but evnlen with moderate pressure goats grow in population. They also graze very aggressively. Hunting the coast shows some destroyed tussocks like I have never seen in any deer country.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Attachment 164811Attachment 164813
This three year old was never going to make a trophy. Looking at the lower head - short tines, tines missing and poorer head than the rest of his peer group. I always look at the lower tines and framing of the head to judge a young stag, tops come with age. Was very heavy though and photos dont do the weight justice

In fairness Garth you do work with deer and velvet etc and watch them grow out yearly so these small much harder to assess nuances are a learned skill based on experience. Also you have a very specific idea of trophy hahahaha you've picked apart so stags most would consider trophies of a lifetime (300 plus animals).

I have not been able to find any good information on year-on-year antler development of an individual stag. Is anyone aware of any resources that show this? It might be interesting.

Originally Posted by gimp

I have not been able to find any good information on year-on-year antler development of an individual stag. Is anyone aware of any resources that show this? It might be interesting.

The only really good info that I have seen was from a German deer park where each male was photographed each year until full maturity or culling. In that Park the stags were from 10 to 13yrs when they produced their best heads. There is a marked change / improvement in the antler heads of stags as they enter physical maturity (5yrs). When they are young ( up till four ) they are growing their frame and filling out at the same time of year they are growing antlers. Once mature the antlers improve markedly because much more of the feed intake can be channeled to antler growth. We are seeing that exponential improvement now in stags not shot last year.
On NZ deer farms animals bred to supply the trophy park industry will produce their highest scoring head at 6 or 7 and their heaviest head around 9 or 10 years. As they age the tines shorten and thicken reducing score but increasing mass.