Thread: B Cat Holder Wanted!!

spanners, firearms training in a civilian competitive context and in a paramilitary context are two FUNDAMENTALY different things

And to make a generalised statement that small arms training in the military has not advanced significantly since WW2 (your words, 70 years) is pretty astounding.

I've personally had the benefit of both types of training, chalk and cheese mate

Originally Posted by ebf

spanners, firearms training in a civilian competitive context and in a paramilitary context are two FUNDAMENTALY different things

And to make a generalised statement that small arms training in the military has not advanced significantly since WW2 (your words, 70 years) is pretty astounding.

I've personally had the benefit of both types of training, chalk and cheese mate

Fundamentally different ?? The fundamentals of grip, stance and sight picture should not change

If you're into history or old military firearms etc have a look at the publications over the years and wars. Less the over the top bayonet march they are damn near the same from ww1 to Vietnam. Even looks like the drawings were done by the same fella
Some really neat old stuff

Originally Posted by Spanners

Fundamentally different ?? The fundamentals of grip, stance and sight picture should not change

Some of the fundamentals are different. Stance/concealment is a good example. Weapon retention is another, pretty important if you are a police officer, a non issue for Joe Blogs at the range.

But I think you misunderstood me, the difference I am talking about is that military training (at least at the basic level) is all about bare bones competency, and also uniformity. In a platoon you want people to do things the same way. You also learn a different skill set in terms of firing while moving, house clearing etc. bottom line is they teach you how to be a soldier, and how to react in combat.

Civilian competitive shooting is all about individual excellence, and fine tuned to a particular discipline like IPSC.

Most first world countries, including New Zealand, now use electronic systems to do qualification, and also to diagnose problems with rifle skills. These things show you all kinds of detail about sights, barrel movement etc.

When the Army adopted the P226 in 92' I was sent on the original fam cse. It was run by the top shot and weapons instructor from SiG. Sweedish fella. He was ex-military, but what the fuck would he know.

Originally Posted by Tussock

Why are you mad at me? Should not you be mad at the guy who told us he got his broken nose "training hand to hand combat with the SAS" but actually got it from a nerdy kid from Uni who weighed 40kg less than him? Or the guys who turned up in full webbing and talked for hours about their training, then got blisters and had to sit in the van? Or the guy who was "special forces" and only lasted 4 hours in camp (that is a actual record). Or the guy with 20 years in the army built a million dollar camp in a wadi in the dry season? One guy was pretty clever but he still wrote evac procedures which nearly got me killed.

Like I said. All the good ones lost in the mire of the shit talkers. Its not my fault if all the stuff I have heard has never ended up matching up with what I have seen. So yeah, talk up the army shit to your hearts content. But you might want to do something about the tall tales.

You're just as big a shit stirrer as us common people tussock and your a moderator,of your so high and mighty why don't you set a good example.that's what clever cunts do


Sent from my HUAWEI Y210-0100 using Tapatalk 2

Originally Posted by Tussock

Why are you mad at me? Should not you be mad at the guy who told us he got his broken nose "training hand to hand combat with the SAS" but actually got it from a nerdy kid from Uni who weighed 40kg less than him? Or the guys who turned up in full webbing and talked for hours about their training, then got blisters and had to sit in the van? Or the guy who was "special forces" and only lasted 4 hours in camp (that is a actual record). Or the guy with 20 years in the army built a million dollar camp in a wadi in the dry season? One guy was pretty clever but he still wrote evac procedures which nearly got me killed.

Like I said. All the good ones lost in the mire of the shit talkers. Its not my fault if all the stuff I have heard has never ended up matching up with what I have seen. So yeah, talk up the army shit to your hearts content. But you might want to do something about the tall tales.

Not mad at you all Tim, just amused tbh. You know I think well of you and would happily share a beer or a camp with you anytime. I just disagree with you in this instance. However, I agree, there is a lot of weekend warriors out there. But I am sure you will agree and would be able to filter out the weirdo's when the credibility is just in their demeanor not their words.

Originally Posted by Tussock

Every territorial soldier who did his basic training will tell you he is the elite of the elite, the sharp end of the best fighting force the world has ever known blah blah blah. Really military training is not the best way to do anything. Its a way that most people can get right, most of the time, and a way that a bunch of guys that can't find their shoe laces most of the time let alone tie them can be made moderately effective.

Some people come out of the military knowing all kinds of stuff. They are lost in the mire of the thousands of people grossly exaggerating their effectiveness.

Before you all have a cry, I have spent plenty of time in the bush with ex-army guys. They are like a perfect cog in an awesome machine, trained extremely well to do the job of that cog. And what can a cog do if you take it out of the machine? Not much.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. I will believe the "military elite" line when I see it. Yet to see it.

The Military would do it self proud having you and spanners giving the final stamp of approval on potential recruits so they can only hope to aspire to your level of..........Legen............wait for it.................dary.

You should be given honourary Wings and Dager embloms and have your portraits in all unit headquarters

And we're off again

In the same way that there is a fundamental difference between civilian competitive training and paramilitary training, there is also a world off difference between firearms training for basic army units vs specialised units.

And Tussock, PLEASE READ THIS SLOWLY : different, not one is better or worse..., you are the guy who is making this a "military training sucks" debate.

In exactly the same way that I detest the typical wannabe TF weekender claiming to be the second coming of some elite force having someone who has sweet blow-all military training or experience spout off about how pathetic it supposedly is, is not a lot better in my book

Originally Posted by Tussock

Every territorial soldier who did his basic training will tell you he is the elite of the elite, the sharp end of the best fighting force the world has ever known blah blah blah. Really military training is not the best way to do anything. Its a way that most people can get right, most of the time, and a way that a bunch of guys that can't find their shoe laces most of the time let alone tie them can be made moderately effective.

Some people come out of the military knowing all kinds of stuff. They are lost in the mire of the thousands of people grossly exaggerating their effectiveness.

Before you all have a cry, I have spent plenty of time in the bush with ex-army guys. They are like a perfect cog in an awesome machine, trained extremely well to do the job of that cog. And what can a cog do if you take it out of the machine? Not much.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. I will believe the "military elite" line when I see it. Yet to see it.

Go fuck you're self

Sent from my HUAWEI Y210-0100 using Tapatalk 2

Neckers, not really sure that is the solution...

What if he manages to impregnate himself ? You'd get a super distilled tussock mini-me, imagine trying to have a debate with that

Originally Posted by ebf

Neckers, not really sure that is the solution...

What if he manages to impregnate himself ? You'd get a super distilled tussock mini-me, imagine trying to have a debate with that

I'm just taking the piss I'm to retarded to be on this forum.
:what::eek::screwy::sly::confused:

Sent from my HUAWEI Y210-0100 using Tapatalk 2

Your latest post is nothing like your last. I would have to agree and sympathize with you on the last one.
I know and accept the military or police do not know everything or what is best. But in some cases, the standard of training and expectations in certain roles is higher than you will ever encounter on the outside. It has to be, or any muppet could be SAS for example.
As ebf said there are many different branches of both that require different standards. They can be worlds apart, even in the same unit.

Plonkers that show up to shoots and announce they are military or police are just plonkers. IMO they are generally dishonest and have not learnt that actions speak way louder than words.

I know a lot of people would disagree, but I get a tad defensive when the military (Army) is challenged on here. I always will, and make no apologies for it as long as I dont get banned.
I have had a pleasure and the privilage as a soldier, to see and do things that a lot of people could or would not do. I was able to do it with some of the highest calibre Kiwis, I consider a privilage, just to know.
I know it is not always intended and usually I can handle being insulted personally, but not them.

Analytical buggers, those "Drop Shorts" (Arty)

And thus the issue of no tone and context via short text.
It's a lot easier to discuss with words spoken rather than iPhone screen
Intention/point/argument is still the same, maybe 5th time lucky we're getting there lol

For fucks sake.

Are you guys trying to get fit by typing or something ??


Tim