Thread: HDPA does indeed lie about firearms

Originally Posted by Maca49

What's the point? A better way than giving a lot of non licenced, poorly trained police officers the right to carry, would be to let them have the teeth to do their job properly now. Imagine the self harm if you armed them! It's bad enough now and many police want nothing to do with firearms. Just because the REST of the world is armed doesn't mean we HAVE to follow

Non licenced? What does that have to do with anything? I didn't think cops needed a licence for doing cop stuff at work.
The army don't need licences either.

While googling Greg O'Conner I found some results of a survey done recently that showed 72% of cops in NZ wanted to carry firearms full time. So there must be plenty who want them when they need them, but not carry full time so the 'many' that want 'nothing to do with firearms' as you claim, can't be that many.

I think most squad cars carry guns already now. The only difference would be cops having them on their hips so they can use them immediately if needed, instead of having them in the boot of the car too far away to be of use if surprised by an armed felon.

Originally Posted by Tahr

I'm not ignorant of the fact that some of us shooters and hunters are so subjective that we are beyond being reasonable, nor that we select data and information to support our own bias in the same way that the Assotiation does.

Unfortunately you need to fight fire with fire or you get burnt.

Originally Posted by systolic

While googling Greg O'Conner I found some results of a survey done recently that showed 72% of cops in NZ wanted to carry firearms full time. So there must be plenty who want them when they need them, but not carry full time so the 'many' that want 'nothing to do with firearms' as you claim, can't be that many.

NZ's firearm homicide rate drops - National - NZ Herald News


Did your google result bring you to this article where O'Conner is quoted saying things such as these:

"Police Association president Greg O'Connor, who advocates arming police officers, said the decline in firearm homicides showed New Zealand had well-balanced gun licensing.

"Particularly in New Zealand, you can go hunting and do your bit for ecology, because you're mostly hunting pests anyway," Mr O'Connor said.

"I would be very disappointed if as a result of the actions of criminals in New Zealand, there was an encroachment against lawful gun-owning people." "

Originally Posted by systolic

The only difference would be cops having them on their hips so they can use them immediately if needed, instead of having them in the boot of the car too far away to be of use if surprised by an armed felon.

Or so they can be taken off them by criminals who surprise them with a smack to back of the head, or so they can overreact to a stressful situation and shoot someone when it could have been de-escalated without violence... situations just as likely as your example.

Doesn't make sense a enforcement officer doesn't need a firearms licence when us mere mortals do?. The army is a little different when fighting wars and killing people is the objective.

Originally Posted by Jexla

Unfortunately you need to fight fire with fire or you get burnt.




NZ's firearm homicide rate drops - National - NZ Herald News


Did your google result bring you to this article where O'Conner is quoted saying things such as these:

"Police Association president Greg O'Connor, who advocates arming police officers, said the decline in firearm homicides showed New Zealand had well-balanced gun licensing.

"Particularly in New Zealand, you can go hunting and do your bit for ecology, because you're mostly hunting pests anyway," Mr O'Connor said.

"I would be very disappointed if as a result of the actions of criminals in New Zealand, there was an encroachment against lawful gun-owning people." "

What has a homicide rate got to do with cops wanting or needing guns?

None of the cops in Whangarei who got shot at a few weeks ago were killed so, because there was no homicide, they didn't need to be armed?
Gunman still on the run after firing shot at police, stealing police car in Northland | Stuff.co.nz

The cops in New Plymouth had to run back to their squad car to get guns after they were shot at in 2013.
https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/...tim-broken-man

In 2015 two cops in Waikato got shot at with a shotgun while in hot pursuit of a car. But they didn’t die so that’s all right then. I don’t know what the fuss is about.
https://www.policeassn.org.nz/newsro...s-october-2015

This cop was shot three times, but is still alive so he obviously had no use for a gun.
Charges laid following policeman's shooting | Stuff.co.nz

No shots fired here, so clearly no need for guns?
Man on the run after pointing gun at police in Manurewa - National - NZ Herald News

If the number of people killed by falling pine trees was getting less, but the number of forestry workers getting injured by trees was getting more, does that mean the problem is getting better or worse?

Edited to add that cop in Turangi who might not have been cut up with a machete after stopping a car and being attacked if he had a gun on his hip.

There is obviously some (probably reasonably high up) in the Police that do agree with Greg,

There is suddenly a big push for a register, while it would appear that the Police have been building one for some time with the vetting officers and now mail order forms.
Greg has come out wanting 50cals to become a restricted weapon because they will go through a vest and now restrictions are being put on import permits.

Im sure there are other coincidences as well.

Originally Posted by GravelBen

Or so they can be taken off them by criminals who surprise them with a smack to back of the head, or so they can overreact to a stressful situation and shoot someone when it could have been de-escalated without violence... situations just as likely as your example.

How many cops in NZ have had their guns taken off them now?

(Not counting that guy at Aramoana who was already dead when his pistol was taken.)

Who got shot when the situation "could have been de-escalated without violence"?

Originally Posted by Chilli_Dog

There is obviously some (probably reasonably high up) in the Police that do agree with Greg,

There is suddenly a big push for a register, while it would appear that the Police have been building one for some time with the vetting officers and now mail order forms.
Greg has come out wanting 50cals to become a restricted weapon because they will go through a vest and now restrictions are being put on import permits.

Im sure there are other coincidences as well.

There must be more than some cops who agree with him if they keep voting him in as union president.

Let's not forget :
Concern at lack of police gun training | Radio New Zealand News

Police themselves are concerned at the lack of sufficient live fire training for themselves. Throwing a Glock on every hip won't be the magical solution some people are expecting, as shit heads will still be shitheads (as seen in numerous Police 10-7 and other reality cop shows).

Originally Posted by systolic

There must be more than some cops who agree with him if they keep voting him in as union president.

Does anyone else want the job?

Originally Posted by Kscott

Let's not forget :
Concern at lack of police gun training | Radio New Zealand News

Police themselves are concerned at the lack of sufficient live fire training for themselves. Throwing a Glock on every hip won't be the magical solution some people are expecting, as shit heads will still be shitheads (as seen in numerous Police 10-7 and other reality cop shows).

Which in itself ties in with:

Budget 2016: Virtually Another Frozen Police Budget | Scoop News

Originally Posted by Steve123

Does anyone else want the job?

5 people are standing for the election of a new President for the Association.

It's interesting and informative to go into the Police Association web site for a browse. There is a story about Oconnors back ground which is interesting and nothing like the attempts that have been made to portray it on here.

Have a look for a broader perspective.

Originally Posted by Maca49

Doesn't make sense a enforcement officer doesn't need a firearms licence when us mere mortals do?. The army is a little different when fighting wars and killing people is the objective.

To be fair, a fal like what most forum members have would make no difference to how well a cop acts with a gun.the difference in use and mindset is just to large, sure it's not the same as the army either.
For both the police and military proper training is needed-if the tick I. There training box is called a license does it really change anything?

If joe blow like you and I could Cary in public for protection then there would be a case for the licance story be the same

Problem is that govt budgets don't seem to have room to fund the training-lets not forget that it's not just the ammo it's the extra bodies to cover the down time caused by proper training. Unless the $ is there I'm anti arming the police, if the $ was there I'm open to it as I know I would want it if I was doing the job and I struggle with the idea of expecting someone to do something on my behalf with less tools/training than I feel I would want to to the task.

Originally Posted by systolic

How many cops in NZ have had their guns taken off them now?

(Not counting that guy at Aramoana who was already dead when his pistol was taken.)

Who got shot when the situation "could have been de-escalated without violence"?

How many cops have had a gun holstered on them for every job they attend?
How many times have they had a scuffle with someone whilst they had a gun holstered?

All you're saying is that the current system works.

Originally Posted by systolic

What has a homicide rate got to do with cops wanting or needing guns?

None of the cops in Whangarei who got shot at a few weeks ago were killed so, because there was no homicide, they didn't need to be armed?
Gunman still on the run after firing shot at police, stealing police car in Northland | Stuff.co.nz

The cops in New Plymouth had to run back to their squad car to get guns after they were shot at in 2013.
https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/...tim-broken-man

In 2015 two cops in Waikato got shot at with a shotgun while in hot pursuit of a car. But they didn’t die so that’s all right then. I don’t know what the fuss is about.
https://www.policeassn.org.nz/newsro...s-october-2015

This cop was shot three times, but is still alive so he obviously had no use for a gun.
Charges laid following policeman's shooting | Stuff.co.nz

No shots fired here, so clearly no need for guns?
Man on the run after pointing gun at police in Manurewa - National - NZ Herald News

If the number of people killed by falling pine trees was getting less, but the number of forestry workers getting injured by trees was getting more, does that mean the problem is getting better or worse?

Edited to add that cop in Turangi who might not have been cut up with a machete after stopping a car and being attacked if he had a gun on his hip.

I think you will find that your buddy O'Connor said this, so why are you asking me?
Remember he speaks on behalf of all the police officers you have talked about in your post, they voted for him.

Originally Posted by Jexla

How many cops have had a gun holstered on them for every job they attend?

Any specifically tasked to work at international airports.