Thread: How to lose your NZ Firearms License?

The unfortunate truth is that mud sticks.
A woman I dated was advised by her friends to threaten her husband that she would report that he had hit her in the past unless he agreed to pay her a higher divorce settlement, the police would issue a domestic violence order and he would have his firearms seized. She never did any such thing but it would be hard to get past something like that and probably next to impossible to get them back.

Originally Posted by timattalon

That in itself raises an interesting proposition. Should Police lose their jobs if they are caught speeding? If not, why not? If FAL holders are held to a higher standard than Police, what right do Police have to administer the firearms act that does not make it hypocritical?

If they wish to say that speeding is proof someone is not 'fit and proper' to hold a license, then surely a speeding ticket would mean a person is not of good enough character to be a police officer?

Or to put it another way...If a policeman loses his license for drink driving, would that police officer be allowed to drive as part of their duties? And why would that officer be allowed to continue to undertake their duties?

There's been a couple of cases recently where Police officers did lose their licenses and hence their employment as a result of driving offenses resulting in loss of license. It's not broadcast by Police as an organization when it happens, for obvious reasons - humans make mistakes etc etc.

One of my issues with the domestic violence thing is there is a class of lawyer advising clients to go for protection orders and make complaints in order to give the wife(ex) a better case come custody/family court time. I've heard of several cases where its happened, some from the guy being an acquaintance or a good mate and some where the women is the contact and telling me what the lawyer has told her she needs to do. In one case she was told she had to do it as the nz system is heavily weighted against mothers and that she had to go after half the ex husband's company pension and entitlements - I seriously think it's more a case of lawyers gaming the system as those steps require a few more reports assessments and another couple of hearings. Bloody vultures...

Originally Posted by No.3

There's been a couple of cases recently where Police officers did lose their licenses and hence their employment as a result of driving offenses resulting in loss of license. It's not broadcast by Police as an organization when it happens, for obvious reasons - humans make mistakes etc etc.

One of my issues with the domestic violence thing is there is a class of lawyer advising clients to go for protection orders and make complaints in order to give the wife(ex) a better case come custody/family court time. I've heard of several cases where its happened, some from the guy being an acquaintance or a good mate and some where the women is the contact and telling me what the lawyer has told her she needs to do. In one case she was told she had to do it as the nz system is heavily weighted against mothers and that she had to go after half the ex husband's company pension and entitlements - I seriously think it's more a case of lawyers gaming the system as those steps require a few more reports assessments and another couple of hearings. Bloody vultures...

I know there was one who lost her job for drink driving crashing etc recently in the news. I was really inferring that if we are to lose our FAL for speeding level offences THEN they should also lose their ability to be Police for the same. They should be held to a higher standard than us, or at the very least, the same as us.

In truth, my real view is that a few speeding offenses , especially fairly minor ones should not have repercussions that outweigh the offense.- They should not lose their jobs for sometimes being a few ks over and nor should a FAL be taken for the same. Wof a few weeks / days over etc. We should not have to drive with our eyes glued to a speedo to make sure we stay under 100km when the real danger is in front of the bonnet (traffic, road conditions, hazards etc...) Sure excessive speed or showing clear disregard for the law is going to understandably going to have an impact as is frequent and repetitive flouting of limits. But an occasional oversight , missed sign, or my last one (about 3km over the limit while trying not to cause delays to Christmas holiday traffic while towing a trailer...) should show that we are trying to obey laws that are being policed to a tolerance level that is below the accuracy of most peoples speedos....

Yep, one recent one was a speeding offense on a motorcycle, I actually felt for that guy as from what I heard from a third party it was one of those mitigating circumstances and don't do it again would have sufficed but the guy got the book, book ends and the shelf.

I don't know much but I suspect a lot. What I suspect is that Police apply a certain amount of discretion within the law and are legally entitled to do so. So if on the balance of things you're a fine contributing upstanding citizen who happens to get pinged over the speed limit a couple of times as an "aberration", the only consequence is your fine and demerits. Get a rep as a Clever Harry, a Slippery Jack, a Suspected Affiliate, a Closet Basher or Left-Handed Taker etc etc, then you may find Police take the opportunity you present them with to clip your wings.

On the other hand, prejudice and profiling exist in all walks of life so if you happen at the moment in question to be in the "wrong" demographic, or perceived to be something you may not be, then you're vulnerable to arseholes such as can be found in any part of our society. Met a few myself along the way. All wore "uniforms", some Official Blue, most not, (a suit after all is a uniform too).

Take care out there...

Yep. The one thing we need to realise as well is Police by definition are a reactive outfit that specialise in applying their skills after an event, and sorting out what we as society class as undesirable. That tends to skew ones thinking after a while in the job, as one officer said to me in all seriousness "everyone has criminal tendancies we just haven't seen it or caught them yet"...

That forms one of the core objections a lot of people have with Police in an admin role, focus on potential criminal actions above all else as that lines up with the organisations doctrine, training and thought patterns. People that don't have that background are always going to strike conflict with that thinking at some stage, as most other outfits have adopted the process of looking to the positives (sometimes to or past the point where everything has turned to crap).

"I know there was one who lost her job for drink driving crashing etc recently in the news. I was really inferring that if we are to lose our FAL for speeding level offences THEN they should also lose their ability to be Police for the same. They should be held to a higher standard than us, or at the very least, the same as us."


But then there is the recent case of the person convicted of mis-use of the Police Secure Database (same one the Firearms Register will be on) for personal gain and was then allowed by Police to keep her job with continued access.路*♂️

I've been informed by a knowledgeable officer that the level of behaviour for a firearms licence 'fit and proper person' review and possible revocation is very low. After Chch they are all very very nervous about firearms licences and ownership.

I was warned after I had words with a traffic cop for giving me a ticket doing 78 in a 70 at 4am one morning. Yes, I was over the speed limit, but as I pointed out to him, a gentle 'watch your speed' warning would probably have sufficed.

There's a lot more to this which I won't go into, but I didn't swear at him, or do anything else, just politely pointed out to him that this is the reason why people dont respect you anymore. You're a revenue gathering service, nothing more, nothing less.

And decent people can't get help from you, because no one can get ahold of you anymore. You won't answer the phone.

Ironically, this is how the police are able to claim that reported crime is down in Hawkes Bay, because no one's phones are operational, so nothing is getting reported.

I would like to see the crime stats once the power and phones are operational again. I bet there's a bit of a back log.

This enables stinking politicians can blatantly lie to your face.

Originally Posted by No.3

"everyone has criminal tendancies we just haven't seen it or caught them yet"...

This sort of thinking is a problem - everyone becomes a criminal of some sort if the prevailing thinking (...or teaching) follows.

Originally Posted by tac a1

I've been informed by a knowledgeable officer that the level of behaviour for a firearms licence 'fit and proper person' review and possible revocation is very low. After Chch they are all very very nervous about firearms licences and ownership.

I was warned after I had words with a traffic cop for giving me a ticket doing 78 in a 70 at 4am one morning. Yes, I was over the speed limit, but as I pointed out to him, a gentle 'watch your speed' warning would probably have sufficed.

There's a lot more to this which I won't go into, but I didn't swear at him, or do anything else, just politely pointed out to him that this is the reason why people dont respect you anymore. You're a revenue gathering service, nothing more, nothing less.

And decent people can't get help from you, because no one can get ahold of you anymore. You won't answer the phone.

Ironically, this is how the police are able to claim that reported crime is down in Hawkes Bay, because no one's phones are operational, so nothing is getting reported.

I would like to see the crime stats once the power and phones are operational again. I bet there's a bit of a back log.

This enables stinking politicians can blatantly lie to your face.

So another way that the law abiding get punished for Police failings

Originally Posted by Danger Mouse

So another way that the law abiding get punished for Police failings

Pretty much Mouse. Look, at the end of the day I was 8kmphr over the limit. Ive paid the ticket and moved on.

It was more about his attitude that started it. Yeah, it was 4 am, he was probably knackered from being up all night. Everyone can get a bit grumpy when youre tired and frazzled.

I just was annoyed with the $$ it cost. No beersies that week.

Originally Posted by Nickoli

This sort of thinking is a problem - everyone becomes a criminal of some sort if the prevailing thinking (...or teaching) follows.

Yep, was quite surprised to hear it spoken like that - you kind of inevitably hear it bandied about as an urban legend type deal but from an older more grizzled blueliner it's sort of a concern you are right.

I've had nothing but good experiences from the local arms officer, excepting maybe the time I got a rark up from him for buying a firearm off trademe and trying to sort the mail order form to get it sent through to find out that the guy selling it was overseas and a mate had it blah blah blah. Yeah, not ideal but as I said it wasn't really my problem as I brought it unencumbered off an online auction and was trying to comply with my end of the rules...

Originally Posted by Nickoli

This sort of thinking is a problem - everyone becomes a criminal of some sort if the prevailing thinking (...or teaching) follows.

Shades of Minority Report. Deny FAL for a crime we might commit.

That is an excellent article. Despite being Aussie in origin, I can't think if anything that would be materially different in NZ.

I'm not sure if this bit would be an issue here in NZ bit it was a good read

COPIED FROM #18
Now for the hard bit. Being law abiding normally involves reporting crime. If someone has threatened me- and this occurred occasionally when I practiced Family Law, I never reported it to Police. Why? Because they would have used this as an excuse to confiscate my firearms and secondly, I have always been of the view that the person who threatens is generally not the person who is the danger- the real danger is from the quiet brooding type whose attack comes without warning and from the shadows.