Thread: Mail order firearm loophole??????????

Originally Posted by Jexla

Where in the legislation does it outline what information is required?

S43a.

Written order, signed by the purchaser, endorsed by a member of Police. That's it. No more, no less.

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The problem is though, what is a "written order"? An order probably means who you are buying from, and what you are buying. The law doesn't state it has to be the police form, but are you prepared to push the issue at the police station or in a court? The form is now emailed to the seller as well, is that written?
At the end of the day a system has been created that works that "should" keep firearms out of the wrong hands.
While no forms at Guncity or other dealers have been found to be forged, I bet some private sales were forged.

Exactly, a written order isn't specified what it is.

Also how do you interpret this meaning? Sometimes it's hard to understand what legislation is actually saying.

74 Regulations
(1)The Governor-General may, from time to time, by Order in Council, make regulations for all or any of the following purposes:
(g) prescribing forms of applications, permits, licences, endorsements, registers, notices, and other documents required for the purposes of this Act, or authorising the Commissioner to prescribe or approve such forms, and requiring the use of such forms

Means that they can change the form without it having to go back through parliament and the law being amended.

That's what I thought. Therefore that means they can require you to fill that for out if they request you to, does it not?

Originally Posted by Jexla

That's what I thought. Therefore that means they can require you to fill that for out if they request you to, does it not?

They would have to create a regulation (ie a legal document in itself) stating that their particular form is required - but that would probably contradict the Arms Act which says (as mentioned above) that it just has to be a written order etc. Acts are more powerful than regulations, as the regulation would be created under the authority of the act.

However if they were refusing to sign a written order which didn't use their form, I think you would have to really want to make an issue of it to be worth the cost and hassle of a legal challenge.

Originally Posted by Jexla

That's what I thought. Therefore that means they can require you to fill that for out if they request you to, does it not?

No.

If they want a specific form to be used, which isn't already specified in the act, then they need either:
-an Order In Council by the Governor General, or
- an Amendment to the Act.

Once a form is prescribed, then they could insist that you complete all fields. However, if the information requested isn't specified in the order/amendment than you could certainly challenge than he requirement to fill it out.

A "written order" is not a prescribed form.

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Originally Posted by Koshogi

No.

If they want a specific form to be used, which isn't already specified in the act, then they need either:
-an Order In Council by the Governor General, or
- an Amendment to the Act.

Once a form is prescribed, then they could insist that you complete all fields. However, if the information requested isn't specified in the order/amendment than you could certainly challenge than he requirement to fill it out.

A "written order" is not a prescribed form.

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Good luck arguing that in court when the cop tells you to complete the form he gave you 100%.

Pretty sure you actually have to physically "sight" the other persons licence as part of the transaction if you have not got the "Form"

Also pretty sure that the "Arms Act" is one of the few where you have to be able to prove you didn't do something bad/wrong as opposed to all the others where the Authorities must "Prove" you did do that something beyond reasonable doubt

i think when it comes to gunstuff ''reasonably sure'' is no longer good enough
.doesnt the mail order form apply to sending ammo guns to even your granny?? if your not personaly delivering it yourself and therefore are in a position to inspect a licence .

Only if you're selling it to your granny.

S43a only applies to sales.

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Of course if its someone you know personally and you have seen their firearms licence then you can argue that its not a 'mail order' sale either, so the form is not required.

43 Selling or supplying firearm or airgun to unlicensed person
(1) Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to imprisonment
for a term not exceeding 3 months or to a fine not exceeding $1,000 or to both
who—
(a) sells or supplies a firearm (other than a pistol, military style semi-automatic
firearm, or restricted weapon) to any person who is not the holder
of a firearms licence or a dealer’s licence or a permit issued for the purposes
of section 16(1); or
(b) sells or supplies an airgun to any natural person who is under the age of
18 years and is not the holder of a firearms licence.
(2) In any prosecution for an offence against subsection (1) in which it is
proved,—
(a) in the case of a prosecution for an offence against paragraph (a) of that
subsection, that the defendant sold or supplied a firearm to any person,
the burden of proving that that person was the holder of a firearms
licence shall lie on the defendant;

...

(4) A defendant may, in the case of a prosecution relating to the sale or supply of a
firearm or airgun to any person, discharge the burden of proof placed on him
by subsection (2) by proving that he took reasonable steps to ascertain whether
that person was the holder of a firearms licence or was of or over the age of 18
years, as the case may require.

I am surprised that no one has posted on the item reported on TV last night where a courier left a signature required package containing a firearm, with bolt, on a woman's doorstep (parcel was for her) in Welle. Or have I missed it and it is posted already?
Slightly OT for this thread but it still going to cause us grief with cops/trademe looking at the issue of firearms being couriered and no one to receive them. Rather than the issue being the slack arse couriers who we pay extra for to send signature required and they don't complete the agreed service.