Thread: Llewellin Setter breed

Interesting commentry

Fraudulent Papers

With the Llewellin Setter pups demanding 3-4 times what the average English Setter pup sells for, and FDSB having allowed breeders to hand write individual puppy papers without any litter registration requirements for many, many years, is there any wonder that FDSB could be the leader in fraudulent papers especially within the Llewellin Setter breed today.

Some of us have watched English Setter Kennels become Llewellin Setter Kennels virtually over night and German Shorthair Pointers become almost all white with little ticking and have the famous English Pointer face in just a few years. You would think someone over there would care, but not when the main goal is to win big running trials judged on horse back. All the way up to the 90's one could easily manufacture generations of old litter papers dating back many generations and years so that breeder's and the dogs were no longer a live to verify.

The fact is, nothing was in place to stop dog jockeys (dog dealers) from buying local litters of English Setters for $100-$200 a pup and resell them for $500 plus as Llewellin Setters. DNA parent testing today only proves who the parents of the dogs are and nothing to do with their purity as a breed. Maybe DNA parenting has put an end to switching papers for now on, but it will never unravel all the false papering that was done for years and years without any checks and balances.

This is why "Straight Creek" which includes some well know Field Trail Llewellin Setters today and many others using different named bloodlines are NOT allowed to be transferred from FDSB to IPDBA registry today. Since, they started with big running FDSB English Setters, is their any wonder that they so well in the Llewellin Setter trials, but have VERY questionable pedigrees as far as being accurate or pure "Llewellin Setters" and are banned from IPDBA registration even as an English Setter. Unlike, FDSB who has registered Setters of questionable pedigree as English Setters in the past, a false pedigree is a false pedigree regardless what breed and IPDBA will NOT register them at all.

We actually read on some websites offering Llewellin Setters for sale, that their dogs have been DNA tested proving their dogs are pure Llewellin Setters. This would be funny if not so sad to think these people are actually breeding Llewellin Setters today and can make so outrageous statements when anyone with any sense or genetic knowledge would know that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to DNA test a pup all the way back to Mr. Llewellin's personal dogs, since they all have died and been gone for over 100 years. Let me make it clear, it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell by DNA testing the differences between the English Setter breed and a Llewellin Setter Breeds. It is probably impossible to even tell by DNA any of the Setter breeds from one another, because not only were all Setters one breed at one time, because Llewellin Setters bloodlines were used in the development of ALL the Setter breeds, long before they were separated as different breeds. A Setter was a Setter regardless of color in the 1800's.

Always, keep in mind the fact that DNA testing is only as honest and trusted as the person who takes the DNA sample and they are only testing the pup is out of the parents on the papers and not if they are pure anything. I'm not saying it a bad idea, just that it does not have anything about proving what their pedigrees are past the dogs that have been tested.

True Llewellin Setters

Also, we see people now who are making FALSE claims to MISLEAD the public, by making totally false statements about what a "true Llewellin Setter must be registered with certain registry". To think these people are actually allowed to breed dogs and tell such ridiculous LIES. Are they just that dumb, pushing an agenda, or are they simply that unethical? Either way, how can they be trusted with breeding dogs. What is wrong with getting your facts straight and telling the truth.

Just like with ANY other BREED of dog, Llewellin Setters can be registered with MANY REGISTRIES that a person likes that recognizes them. The fact is, that Llewellin Setters have always been registered in other registries instead of FDSB (American Field), in fact, there ancestors were registered in the first registry in England known as the Kennel Club 'KC', long before AKC or FDSB even existed and were and are registered in a number of registries in the USA, Canada, Europe and around the world today. So claiming that "one must be FDSB registered to be one" is simply a joke. In fact, FDSB does not even fully recognize them as a breed and never did and has done everything in their power to eliminate the separation from the English Setter breed. They are still only recognized within the English Setter breed in their registry as a strain. Maybe now that they are making so much money DNAing them now they will stop trying to eliminate them, but the truth is, FDSB is registering dogs that NLSA and IPDBA has banned from registration because of having false pedigrees.

How pompous for someone to proclaim that their personal registry of choice, is the "only true Llewellin Setter Registry" , especially when FDSB has NEVER even recognized the Llewellin Setter as a BREED, only as a STRAIN of the ENGLISH SETTER. While IPDBA and some other registries FULLY recognize them as a UNIQUE BREED, known as a LLEWELLIN SETTER and have had the highest registration policies, while FDSB allowed breeder's to fill out litter apps for each pup without ever registering their litters. This policy a lone resulted in countless English Setter pups being false registered as them simply to double the value of their pups.

The NATIONAL LLEWELLIN SETTER ASSOCIATION 'NLSA', is the oldest LLewellin Setter organization in history and recognizes IPDBA as the "LLewellin Setter registry", because IPDBA recognizes the LLEWELLIN SETTER as a TRUE BREED and FDSB does NOT and NEVER HAS and has even allowed people to register them as English Setters. If the dogs pedigrees are fraudulent, then how can they allow them to be register as English Setters. Do they think so little of the English Setter breed and breeder's in their registry.

Also, it might be helpful to note that IPDBA does not register the many Llewellin Setters that have been known to be fraudulent, those breeder's and bloodlines have ALL been BARED from IPDBA registration, but they are STILL being freely used in FDSB Llewellin Setter breeding programs today and continue to be spread throughout the FDSB Llewellin Setter breed.

So we know FDSB has fraudulent Llewellin Setter and English Setter pedigrees and many questionable examples can be found in FDSB registered German Shorthair's and English Pointers. Can ANY FDSB pedigree be trusted?

As you can see from reading their website, Mike & Marie are very experienced, well educated, dedicated, faithful breeders, who put their all in their breeding program. They believe in having the highest breeding standards, breeding only the purest bloodlines, testing every dog before selecting only the very best, and taking full responsibility by having the best guarantee offered in the world.

Fraudulent FDSB papers? Say it ain't so

one mans opinion

Personal thoughts about Llewellin Setters

You will always get people knocking the ones who succeeded where they may have not had...the dog world is not always light and love...this we know...

the Russian connection


http://www.llewellin.com/LSARussianWinter95.pdf

So... did Mr. Argue reply?

No, but I am unsure if he received the email-his own site says theres a fault

Originally Posted by el borracho

No, but I am unsure if he received the email-his own site says theres a fault

I would like to have a conversation with you about Advie Llewellins in private if you do not mind. i will also message you directly.

Good day sir.

who knows of the Setters Derrie Argue was breeding and if they were as authentic Llewellyn as he once said ??? also has anyone any knowledge of the whereabouts of any of these dogs

I will post to here instead of emailing directly.

Ok, i could spend hours and waste pages on the the purity of the Llewellin setter up to this point. But i will be brief as i can.

The initial purity questioning began with Sorensen and Argue, there was no love between the two gentleman. Both being inheritants of the last official Llewellins in the UK at the time. Sorensen ended up losing the kennel and the Llewellins were in such poor health were mostly put down. Some disappeared into other hands. So from there Derry was accused for breeding collies to the Llewellins which has been disproved.

Then Wolstenholm and Argue had no love either. I will not go into as i appreciate both gentlemen. They just did not get along and the kin still feel that way.

Derry stopped importing dogs to the US because all the breeders were combining his dogs with American Llewellins and still calling them Advie, the FDSB allowed this. Big mistake. So that made bad feelings between most breeders and Derry. But by that time almost every kennel in the US had Advie in the lineage and still do to this day. Americans haven't bred to an Advie in twenty years, but look at all the dogs that still carry the name. There are a few that do not have Advie and proclaim pure Bondhu( Madam Therea ) Which of course are still from Bannon as Advie are. Those who promote the Bondhu before Advie claim Derry and the collie breeding to promote themselves. Then some of American Bondhu breeders got caught up in the King fiasco. King was accused of breeding Llewelins to American English Setters and this was proven by the FDSB. This is when the OTHER Dog Stud book in America was created. It is a shame that all of King dogs were excluded from the FDSB because of this mishap since not all may have been bred to English Setters. When the FDSB started its DNA program they used pure Advie dogs that had not been bred in and to American dogs to create an example of a true Llewellin.

There are also so many more issues that i could go into that it will drive you nuts and disgust you. There is also the Madame Therea form Belgium Argue problem and then add in the gentleman from Italy Mario. But look at it this way. Every kennel in the world has an Advie dog in it,..Why? If people question this fact look at the breeders website and why to this day do they still advertise it. There are also a number of open source pedigree databases to peruse as well. But i will be the first to tell you, do not believe everything you read, and even if you find discrepancies with my statements that maybe. We may never know the whole truths. But it seems that sometimes the loudest ones are the ones who feel they need to prove something.

But this is the basis of the most of it as of now. But I am not expert on the subject and will always be open to conversations.

And as always i am always looking for more information on both English and Llewellins.

Good day.

Seems like there is working vs working bullshit just like working vs show bullshit. At the end of the day a working setter should be just that.

Okrzyki

Originally Posted by upnorth uplander

Seems like there is working vs working bullshit just like working vs show bullshit. At the end of the day a working setter should be just that.

Originally Posted by levernt

Okrzyki

?????

Why would a man equally, if not more famous for his kennel of pointers, outcross his setters to collies when he had pointers there? Ridiculous.

Originally Posted by levernt

Okrzyki

You are Polish?

Polack by virtue, american cause I have too.