Im colour blind and orange blaze is to me a natural colour in the bush, leaves ect, but the blue stands out really wellQuote:
Originally Posted by tetawa
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Im colour blind and orange blaze is to me a natural colour in the bush, leaves ect, but the blue stands out really wellQuote:
Originally Posted by tetawa
And the reason your close encounter didn't turn into a tragedy? I'm gonna guess that you identified your target before just Willy nilly pulling the trigger.. well done, you are a rational person.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7mmwsm
I'm not saying that you're doing something wrong if you encounter another hunter in the Bush and have to go through the process of identifying if they are an animal or another hunter, I'm saying that if you don't go through that process then you are 110% to blame for your actions and you deserve to be locked away and the key thrown away. This attitude of "it could happen to anyone" is a pretty shitty way to think and you shouldn't be in the Bush if that's a concern for you.
There is no yes/no answer. Its the impossibility of knowing that should keep us grounded and super-careful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
In this day and age as long as you have an excuse it makes everything OK
After my own personal close encounter a few roars ago, I personally believe the blaze orange is almost the worst colour you could wear.
I will never wear it after what I saw, and I strongly advise my hunting mates against wearing it.
Why do people bother meat hunting at the busiest most dangerous time of the year? misidentification shootings would be eliminated in the roar if people hunting in april were only looking for trophy stags. Fill ya freezer up spring/summer. Iv never heard of a mistaken id shooting where the victim was mistaken for a “12pt stag with great length and strong tines” its 100% always just “thought he was a deer”Quote:
Originally Posted by GWH
We're all capable of it. I bet this weekend's shooter thought it would never happen to him, now he has one of our own's blood on his hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
Commiserations to the deceased hunters family.
Still dancing around the question @Tahr. It's either a possibility for you or it's not. If you are not 110% certain you will never shoot another human in the Bush then maybe take up golf, try not to hit anyone with the ball ...
And maybe that's the answer right there. Make it illegal to shoot anything but an antlered deer between mid of March to middle of may (or whatever). A bit like the tag system in the US. But only applies to the rut period here.Quote:
Originally Posted by savage270
It could make people more consious of what it is that they are shooting at.
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Now we’re thinking out of the box. Not sure how we’d implement that one but it’s the sort of idea we need
yup considering just out of Kumara on the coast had his 12 point pet stag shot out of paddock. so there are people out there who disregard the rules no matter what.
Not quite the same as firearms safety, but more in the vein of the stag only idea. If they can do that, they may still shoot a hind.
Mind you with the amount I get out, if I was looking for a stag and wasn't seeing much a hind may find its way to the freezer on the last day just so the trip wasn't a complete bust?
Maybe not though as I usually only target what I'm originally after but if I can imagine it, I'm sure someone else would do it.
Your assertion is flawed Ryan. Does your unequivocal certainty keep other hunters' more safe than my uncertainty does?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
My view is that it is a possibility for everyone, including yourself and myself. However, I do and will do everything in my human powers to ensure that it never happens. I back my vulnerability to keep others' safe, not my certainty that I will do the right thing.
I dislike golf.
Well I know if you lined up a team of blokes on one side that were unsure if they might shoot someone in the Bush, and a team on the other side that were 100% certain they never would, and then asked me which bunch of blokes do you want in the Bush with you? I'm choosing the 100% sure team every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
Anyone who has ever shot someone in the Bush can tell me until they are blue in the face that they were certain it was a deer and all their other silly excuses but I'm not buying it, its not like any of them are ever going to admit the truth which is that no, they weren't 100% certain it was a deer.
Imo there is a huge difference in how human factors affect aviation and hunting. Apart from maybe some visual references they should not be compared.
Having concrete standards whether you are meat shooting or trophy hunting will also help prevent poor decision making imo.
Attitude and mindset are where the problem is imo.
Just a few days ago I had a stag come in on me after yelling out "How are ya going" several times. We were on a ridge and I only roared the once around 5 mins earlier after smelling a stag had been up the ridge where we were.
It had the most pathetic roar and groan I have heard from a deer. I was pretty sure it was another hunter.
My mutt and I got a good look at him as he popped over a knob in front of us in steepish bush. He had that much momentum he just kept running 5 yrds past us and down hill. Dog almost yanked me down the hill after him.[emoji16]
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All the I saw a deer and took 2 minutes to identify the target through both sight and binos stories would be more believable if there were some stories where the offending Hunter just said I heard a deer coming and popped the first thing I saw. No way did everybody that shot somebody spend the amount of time identifying their target as they say they do; it's the east get out of trouble card and as long as they say it amd can convince somebody it's true the they will feel a little bit better about themselves
This is starting to sound like the answers we are getting to the road toll. Instead of looking at the real problem of NOT identifying your target. We could go one step further and ban bush hunting during the roar but if I remember rightly a few have been shot sitting out in the open.Quote:
Originally Posted by GWH
Alot of the blokes pulling the trigger swear they ARE identifying their target tho, the theory is peoples brains are telling them it is a “deer”Quote:
Originally Posted by tetawa
Having to identify the type of deer and how good its rack is would surely eliminate this. Anyone who does enough hunting at some stage will know the feeling of thinking something is a deer that turns out is not, you cant eliminate that but you can stop people pulling the trigger on it, worded poorly but you get the idea
Yea but of course they're going to say that. There's no ifs or buts about it they know they're talking out their ass and trying to make themselves feel betterQuote:
Originally Posted by savage270
I always hunt with a dog several advantages - indicating game being one, two a good dog is great company, three they hear & smell better than us multiple times one of my dogs have picked human sound and scent before me
Im not so sure Ryan, i believe that anyone that thinks that they are above this, or that this situation could never happen to them, could potentially be quite dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
My thinking is that if a person thought that theres no way that they could make this mistake, then it will not always be at front of mind. Whereas if we think that we all have the potential to make this mistake, then surely that must scare us to a certain degree and always be front of mind and we put our own proccedure in place where we perform multiple checks to confirm beyond all doubt that what we are about to shoot is indeed the intended target.
Yea.... the person that knows they won't ever shoot a human in the Bush is more dangerous than the person who wouldn't put it past themselves... do you guys actually think before you open your mouths/type things?Quote:
Originally Posted by GWH
Anyone that believes they're completely 100% infallible to this scenario is kidding themselves.
Also, no one is suggesting it as an excuse to escape blame, it's just part of why it happens.
Error due to human factors are a well studied and understood fact. We use this knowledge to change the way in which we reach conclusions and make decisions.
Expansion on how to 'identifying your target' needs to be hunter driven.
Is this a game animal yes/no doesn't cut it.
Is this another hunter? Is it a deer? What type of deer is it? What sex is the deer? Is this another hunter? Why am I sure I'm looking at a deer?
The brain can and will try to rationalise what the eyes see and ears hear in order to come up with favourable outcomes. Some people are more susceptible and things like fatigue, past experience, expectation and mood come into play also.
Anyone ever been sitting at the traffic lights, you zone out a little and the truck in the lane next to you starts rolling forwards on a filter light and you almost put the brake pedal through the floor because you think your rolling backwards relative to the other traffic.
For a split second you were positive your stationary vehicle was moving.
BUT ~~Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonecrusher
I know of another case where a chap was shot (he lived - minus half his shoulder from a 270) In Pureora again :-(
He was huddled into a Toe Toe bush on edge of clearing on evening with his dog - shot from 200m - he never knew what hit hime - woke up in Hamilton Hospital later
I was going to make this comment to @R93
The GSP breed are the worst - but any 4 legged animal tucked beside you is added danger
I used to put a knitted jersey on my GSP in blue - but it did not stay that blue for long
Yes - your dog would possible growl at the approach of another hunter - but its not you that we are talking about here - its another hunter shooting at you or your dog
Ryan mate, take a deep breath buddy ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
Back the truck up, have another read of my post.
I have been tested in the situation in the roar, roaring stag moving in on me, i saw colour and movement thru thick cover at about 50 yards. I was pretty sure it was a deer, but at that point hadnt ID'd it, and my own proceedures meant that i wasnt going to shoot at colour and movement at something that i was pretty sure was a sika stag.
Everything was adding up that it was a stag, but i had not ID'd it beyond all doubt that it was. Bushes below me started to shake and i expected the stag to emerge from that at any second......then it burst out of the thick cover into the open.........a father and son dressed head to waist in blaze orange. We all shat ourselves (they too were certain they were stalking a jap stag).
At no point was my gun raised to my shoulder, instead it was in a state of very readiness, pointing 45 deg at ground, thumb on the saftey ready to go.
I can so see how these things happen. But it comes down to individuals own personalities, and self check mechanisiums. Everyone is different. But i honestly believe if we all go into the bush knowing that this type of thing has the potential to happen, even to us, then we will be far more consious of it and do the extra checks and confirmations needed to fully confirm ID before we pull the trigger.
Ryan, there's a post on here mentioning Wayne Edgerton, the Southland guy who shot another hunter in the Longwoods. I would have put Wayne into your team of 100% sure team, he went to extra lengths to promote hunter safety and identification in his region, even to the point of placing posters about identifying your target on public access-ways to hunting areas. Maybe you should try & contact this fellow and ask him some questions on how he made the mistake, when he had the same single minded viewpoint as your own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
Exactly Clint, point being you didn't pull the trigger because you are a rational person, these idiots that shoot people would have been all over that.Quote:
Originally Posted by GWH
I think I have the right in my own country to harvest meat rut or no rut if we start down that track you may as well just ban shooting altogether then no one will get shot will they if you choose to take the shot your responsible for the out come no fuking excuses
Attitude has a lot to do it i think.
There's a lot of people on this forum I wouldn't want to be anywhere near in the hills.
Not going near the Bush at Easter is a pretty good start, we where walking cows out of a road end yesterday and I counted 25 cars going in over 3 hours.
We Recently walked out down the sparrowhawk track where the soldier got shot it was pretty sobering looking at the scene maybe all hunters should be exposed to a scene like this??
Having meet the guy that shot the soldier as we flew in at same time it was intersing to see the scene and finish the puzzle.
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Not growl indicate 100% I would know that something or someone was incoming with a Labrador working 3M in front of you he would display signs, air scenting , when his tail stops wagging it is game on. It is just safer for several reasons if you have a well trained dog working for youQuote:
Originally Posted by Sarvo
Let me know when this 110% certain team is heading out hunting so I can be very far away :thumbsup: I'd rather be around people who doubt what they see and hear and constantly check themselves.
I have never known a dog to "indicate" another humanQuote:
Originally Posted by Bonecrusher
But I do not think you have understood my point - spoken from near on 50 years experience with dogs and people :-)
So I was just talking with another member about this and I came up with an analogy to explain my feelings around this issue, maybe not the best analogy but the shoe fits...
Trying to justify this in anyway shape or form is like blaming a women for being raped because all men have the ABILITY to rape a woman. But do all blokes go around raping women? No they don't, because there are rational thinkers among us, and then there are assholes that don't give a shit what consequences come from their actions, these are the rapists, these are the ones that don't belong in our society or in our sport. All you fellas trying to say that you wouldn't put past yourself to make some kind of mistake are probably best off staying away from women while you're at it, because that is how your mentality comes across...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointer
That's way off what Ryan is getting at and you know it. That's what he is advocating.
Where did I state that I dont doubt everything I see and hear? Or that anyone for that matter who knows they're never going to shoot someone doesn't doubt what they see and hear?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointer
Did I say anywhere that I can tell from a mile off if you're a deer or not?
Question what does a Police dog do.... mate I will hit your fifty and raise you 5 ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarvo
You sure do not sound 60+Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonecrusher
Police dogs are not normally used in Bush for hunting - but again you missing my point
Lets leave it at "just be careful with dog in populated hunting areas - even a Black or Yellow Lab"
I can guarantee that person had some internal turmoil going on due to the person he knew he was portraying himself to be, and the person he really knew he was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathias
SAR, Cadaver, Drug dog .... careful is my middle name experience is the key out there doing it at least once a week minimumQuote:
Originally Posted by Sarvo
Non antlered deer will still get shot as people aren't IDing their target properly its actually illegal to shoot people anyway but that ain't workingQuote:
Originally Posted by GWH
Very trueQuote:
Originally Posted by northdude
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