Thread: the OFF TOPIC to Stags shot 21 (discussion of wild animal management)

Originally Posted by Stocky

I like the idea but realistically it's we do in on foot to our own terms or helicopters do it. Also are you saying recover everything off the animal because I know I couldn't possibly carry a full stag that probably bones out damn near my total body weight if not more from some of the places I hunt. I see this point and it took me a bit to get over it myself. But it's either on a trip our and we have already shot an animals and we can fit another small amount of meat why not do some population control and shoot another hind and take whatever else we can fit even if just the backsteaks.

My moral compromise I made for myself was I take whatever I can carry without to high a risk of injury. If hunting the likes of the rakaia etc that's likely most of the animal if i can get it to the main river in a few trips and can stockpile it to get a 4wd to it. But when on the divide etc with a heap of up and down and 20-30kms to walk out solo Its usually a whole cham or most of a Tahr or most of a hind. In the case of a stag if it's mature reality is it's back steaks and maybe boned out hind quarters and heart if it's good.

hey no problem with that . We all have our limits as to how much we can carry and I would not expect mere mortals as ourselves to carry out an entire stag . Obviously size and weight limits apply , as I mentioned with goats I can generally handle 2 animals but that would be my limit , maybe 3 small ones . I wouldn't shoot any more just because i could . I guess what I am trying to say is I personally would shoot one and take as much from that one animal as I could rather than bowl five and just take back steaks from each....

Originally Posted by Ftx325

hey no problem with that . We all have our limits as to how much we can carry and I would not expect mere mortals as ourselves to carry out an entire stag . Obviously size and weight limits apply , as I mentioned with goats I can generally handle 2 animals but that would be my limit , maybe 3 small ones . I wouldn't shoot any more just because i could . I guess what I am trying to say is I personally would shoot one and take as much from that one animal as I could rather than bowl five and just take back steaks from each....

I get it and to the guy that do haul out loads of full stags as I'm sure they exist I envy them but I also hope they can still get out when they are older as theirs more than a pig hunter or 2 with damaged knees and backs from carrying them out whole.

The only thing in there that I think you are missing or maybe just don't see the same value in as I do, is that I'm not just shooting an extra one because I can I shooting it as shooting another hind is like controlling the population by 5-7 animals. Its not I like shooting them in fact while I say I would it's very rare I do this. Most I've ever shot was two hinds and I felt the same sentiment you do and tried to take back steaks, tenderloins, rear quarters, the hearts and the 1 front shoulder that wasn't minced. That also the trip I did my knee with repeated loading going down and uphill for a sustained trip.

Last Saturday I was getting out as the masses descended on where I was hunting and knew where a hind an Yearling where hand to a track and the road in a little scrub covered basin. To try save as much meat as possible I flicked a message to my partner to come walk in the dark at 4 am to meet me at first light with a mostly empty pack to knock these both over and still be able to haul most of them off the hill. Unfortunately the rain set of the stags and getting distracted meant they had gone to cover by the time we came back from them and there was only a chammy buck hanging out. Who I left as I've been fortunate to take a number of good bucks and where he was meant it was kind of likely he could end up a young hunters or somebodies first buck and a good one at that.

So while I completely understand your choice I see population control as our duty as its hard to bitch about culls etc when we bring it on ourselves. I've said before I'd love to see WARO restricted to hinds and maybe one day partially subsidised in areas of high populations or fragile environments that mean the private sector can fund or partially fund culling in the least detrimental way to recreational hunters because while I think we should help where possible some areas its not possible to do on foot.

Originally Posted by Stocky

I get it
So while I completely understand your choice I see population control as our duty as its hard to bitch about culls etc when we bring it on ourselves. I've said before I'd love to see WARO restricted to hinds and maybe one day partially subsidised in areas of high populations or fragile environments that mean the private sector can fund or partially fund culling in the least detrimental way to recreational hunters because while I think we should help where possible some areas its not possible to do on foot.

This is a huge factor,
ive been doing my own researches in ways i cant explain, but i talk to quite alot of shooters and i pick up what gets put down around the place , to my knowledge .. whatever that matters,
that in Aus particularly, that a good % of Sambar hunters now days doin the back pack thing into remote areas, they primarily shoot Antlers, from back in the earlier 90s/2000s it began, it was a secret society , these guys actually watched stags in areas over year before taking them, an hunting the areas 4-12 times a year on backpack hunts to look for the deer, at some stage through that year they would take a Big Stag, chosen, but often seen many times before, eluded and beaten etc........
what im getting at is Todays culture is to Go back pack hunting for a Week but definatly Kill a Stag.. over the years (touching on potentials/age/what 1 year does/ etc) the Stags have been hunted and Shot, resulting in the many 'age' of stags due to the older guys not killen much at all in there, the pressure slowly rising from hunters expanding into backpack hunting, the newer guys who do see a 27 inch Stag a Trophy (1st or 5th stag ??) and may shoot that 25 incher on the LAst day to make sure its Youtube Content-able and instagramable about the Trip into the Valley...

that 25 incher, or for Kiwis, that 10pt 29 inch Red, just might of needed to be left alone for another few encounters with hunters before it can be ** potentially spruked across the internet for decades as one of the largest stags taken in year 20XX, or some beast that had 60 inch thirds?? lol, whatever..

in changing some hunters or upcoming young fellas sorta opinion and Us hunters explaining some hunters remorse on Camera if we do have a outlet, doesnt make ya weak, or a shit hunter, it shows ya starting to understand just whats happening in the world around Us, whilst we do chase up our favourite recreation that it on the brink of collapse, showing more interest in the animal and the big picture around what we do with the animal and how thats allowed or Why etc is sort of another chapter but in the short term, mostly Everyone does want a big set of Antlers, its fact there is in most places a "deer issue" , if more than less hunters showed this conservative side to the "feral game hunting" scenerio we are in, You could fairly steadily improve the "average" head in ya local forest , i rekon. through restraint , photography, social media and taking that hind for the venno, and hunting different country aka farm land, to get meat helps huge = 1x less velvet stag ya need to take for meat/ but go backpack hunting n scout an observe and learn, kill when needed.

its all food for thought, im a fairly opiniated dude ive figured out , also not singling out too many or any, but im also one of those guys that knows discussing this shit with ya mates over Beers , is great but discussing it on a Forum can do amazing things.... it can also make others have the view one is a little troppo but there is quite a few of us out there that do mostly just think about deer and deer hunting and why it is how it is an ways it could be improved.... i also feel with the internet, things like this can pop up an nek minnit a magazine editor or influencial fella gets onto it, feels the same, learns a way to express that himself, takes others views into his arguement and takes peoples expressed views and words into account,,, it can be awesome.

hooroo

My interests and motivations are more maintaining the social license to hunt and keep/manage a huntable population of game animals in NZ, while improving native biodiversity and habitat, rather than specifically growing more large trophy animals, but my belief is that the latter is a likely by-product of good management for the former.

Originally Posted by gimp

My interests and motivations are more maintaining the social license to hunt and keep/manage a huntable population of game animals in NZ, while improving native biodiversity and habitat, rather than specifically growing more large trophy animals, but my belief is that the latter is a likely by-product of good management for the former.

Yeap bro this is the big picture though in my opinion

above and beyond the Quality deer management for Antlers

antlers is just easier to begin to discuss the process of management ,which stems right up to what your saying, short term, basic SIKA foundation fundamentals get the uneducated well on their way to learning more about that future...

i rekon.
ADA have antlers from a penned stag spike to death..... visually tells more than anyone saying between 3 and 5 years is dramatic let alone another 8... etc

Tis up too older Gens i feel to grace Us with their knowledge and Views and opinions as to why it hasnt worked forever and some little things we could all Take on board to improve and rise above...

i pay memebrship to the Deer assosc to Express their views to the Parliment in regard to what we are doing, an i hope they do it with our brest interest at heart an use the correct terminology ,

The hunter needs to work the same, PR work is huge, social media gets across more non hunting public than chit chat at the pub etc, so thats now up to the hunter to express it wisely.

in the forest though, the hunter is the conserver.

Originally Posted by gimp

My interests and motivations are more maintaining the social license to hunt and keep/manage a huntable population of game animals in NZ, while improving native biodiversity and habitat, rather than specifically growing more large trophy animals, but my belief is that the latter is a likely by-product of good management for the former.

Was wondering if this perspective would pop up. This thread has a lot of talk of game management but none of habitat management or conservation, one hind is worth 5 stags etc. As hunters we need to recognize that some areas just cant carry the amount of animals that live in them, and shooting everything IS a needed solution, by letting populations get to the levels that we are starting to see in some areas we are putting those areas at risk of a permanently weaker herd.

It doesn't matter how good an areas genetics are, if there isn't enough tucker to keep the animals in good breeding condition the trophy potential and health of the herd is going to suffer. Plain and simple, hungry deer don't grow big heads, they cant put on enough condition to be decent eating animals, which also means not enough condition to grow and raise healthy fawns, runty fawns end up being runty deer and the cycle continues.

Don't forget that hinds also carry genetics, and a young 2-5yr old stag with good genetics who is shot "before his prime" has still most likely passed his genes on, his genes don't get better as his antlers do, its almost like some people believe that stags only pass their genes on once when they are at peak antler growth and the hind they mate with has zero impact on the progeny!
Just another perspective to the debate but one that tends to be overlooked.
A healthy habitat breeds healthy deer and everyone wins, whether you are a conservationist, trophy hunter or meat hunter. The only people who lose out are the ones not willing to put in the time or legwork.

P.S a little pair of Bahco secateurs will mow through ribs with ease Gimp, also handy for snipping a branch to hang a leg on, cutting a window to harvest a heart without gutting, getting through supplejack or scrub quietly etc, good lightweight option instead of a hatchet.

Originally Posted by kbrebs

Was wondering if this perspective would pop up. This thread has a lot of talk of game management but none of habitat management or conservation, one hind is worth 5 stags etc. As hunters we need to recognize that some areas just cant carry the amount of animals that live in them, and shooting everything IS a needed solution, by letting populations get to the levels that we are starting to see in some areas we are putting those areas at risk of a permanently weaker herd.

It doesn't matter how good an areas genetics are, if there isn't enough tucker to keep the animals in good breeding condition the trophy potential and health of the herd is going to suffer. Plain and simple, hungry deer don't grow big heads, they cant put on enough condition to be decent eating animals, which also means not enough condition to grow and raise healthy fawns, runty fawns end up being runty deer and the cycle continues.

Don't forget that hinds also carry genetics, and a young 2-5yr old stag with good genetics who is shot "before his prime" has still most likely passed his genes on, his genes don't get better as his antlers do, its almost like some people believe that stags only pass their genes on once when they are at peak antler growth and the hind they mate with has zero impact on the progeny!
Just another perspective to the debate but one that tends to be overlooked.
A healthy habitat breeds healthy deer and everyone wins, whether you are a conservationist, trophy hunter or meat hunter. The only people who lose out are the ones not willing to put in the time or legwork.

P.S a little pair of Bahco secateurs will mow through ribs with ease Gimp, also handy for snipping a branch to hang a leg on, cutting a window to harvest a heart without gutting, getting through supplejack or scrub quietly etc, good lightweight option instead of a hatchet.

A young stag is very unlikely to breed unless the master stag has been shot. Young stags like young boars will hangout in the hope of getting a root but will be shoved aside when the girls are 'on'

Originally Posted by kbrebs

Was wondering if this perspective would pop up. This thread has a lot of talk of game management but none of habitat management or conservation, one hind is worth 5 stags etc. As hunters we need to recognize that some areas just cant carry the amount of animals that live in them, and shooting everything IS a needed solution, by letting populations get to the levels that we are starting to see in some areas we are putting those areas at risk of a permanently weaker herd.

It doesn't matter how good an areas genetics are, if there isn't enough tucker to keep the animals in good breeding condition the trophy potential and health of the herd is going to suffer. Plain and simple, hungry deer don't grow big heads, they cant put on enough condition to be decent eating animals, which also means not enough condition to grow and raise healthy fawns, runty fawns end up being runty deer and the cycle continues.

Don't forget that hinds also carry genetics, and a young 2-5yr old stag with good genetics who is shot "before his prime" has still most likely passed his genes on, his genes don't get better as his antlers do, its almost like some people believe that stags only pass their genes on once when they are at peak antler growth and the hind they mate with has zero impact on the progeny!
Just another perspective to the debate but one that tends to be overlooked.
A healthy habitat breeds healthy deer and everyone wins, whether you are a conservationist, trophy hunter or meat hunter. The only people who lose out are the ones not willing to put in the time or legwork.

P.S a little pair of Bahco secateurs will mow through ribs with ease Gimp, also handy for snipping a branch to hang a leg on, cutting a window to harvest a heart without gutting, getting through supplejack or scrub quietly etc, good lightweight option instead of a hatchet.

I think it's kind of assumed the many mentions of controlling populations is for habitat management you can't manage for habitat without managing for population. The discussion just has more than one focus.

Coming from a registered Angus background that focuses on breeding for better females I completely understand females carry half the genes. You cannot however assess antler quality genes by looking at a hind so no judgement can be made.

I thought earlier I had eluded to a feed pinch at which too many animals means they all suffer nutritionally ie meaning less healthy deer.

I don't agree with shooting everything even in high population areas. I think due to the fact that high pay a dividend of the equivalent population control as 5 stags and they have less effect on hunt quality for those that are looking for mature stags it makes far more sense to target hinds specifically leading to more competition between stags improving genes that carry on.

So in short I agree with all your points and thought they had been eluded to already earlier. I just disagree that targetting everything is a good way to do it as why kill 20 stags when you could much more easily just kill 4 extra hinds for the same population effect with less effect on hunt quality.

Originally Posted by Stocky

I think it's kind of assumed the many mentions of controlling populations is for habitat management you can't manage for habitat without managing for population. The discussion just has more than one focus.

Coming from a registered Angus background that focuses on breeding for better females I completely understand females carry half the genes. You cannot however assess antler quality genes by looking at a hind so no judgement can be made.

I thought earlier I had eluded to a feed pinch at which too many animals means they all suffer nutritionally ie meaning less healthy deer.

I don't agree with shooting everything even in high population areas. I think due to the fact that high pay a dividend of the equivalent population control as 5 stags and they have less effect on hunt quality for those that are looking for mature stags it makes far more sense to target hinds specifically leading to more competition between stags improving genes that carry on.

So in short I agree with all your points and thought they had been eluded to already earlier. I just disagree that targetting everything is a good way to do it as why kill 20 stags when you could much more easily just kill 4 extra hinds for the same population effect with less effect on hunt quality.

Yep we're on the same page I think. I'm more talking about areas that are already out of control numbers wise.
Shooting everything certainly isn't necessary in every scenario but in areas like Bigbear is talking about, where numbers are out of control, shooting 20 stags instead of 4 hinds is going to have a much higher impact on feed availability for the remaining animals with the effects being immediate instead of spread over a period of a few years. Ideally we wouldn't let animal numbers reach the level where this immediate solution is needed but unfortunately it is the case in some areas. I definitely agree shooting hinds IS the long term way to manage a population though.

Originally Posted by kbrebs

Yep we're on the same page I think. I'm more talking about areas that are already out of control numbers wise.
Shooting everything certainly isn't necessary in every scenario but in areas like Bigbear is talking about, where numbers are out of control, shooting 20 stags instead of 4 hinds is going to have a much higher impact on feed availability for the remaining animals with the effects being immediate instead of spread over a period of a few years. Ideally we wouldn't let animal numbers reach the level where this immediate solution is needed but unfortunately it is the case in some areas. I definitely agree shooting hinds IS the long term way to manage a population though.

I agree completely and had that same thought. Why I changed my veiw was that while that it true even in hugely populated areas stags still make up a minority of the population but make up a majority of animals taken (atleast where I hunt) also when hunting solo or even in groups of two or three if a stag is shot chances are there's not enough space in packs to brings anymore animals out maybe 1 more (which is often another stag). So unless you are shooting and leaving most of the animal every time a stag is shot is one less hind that can be shot in that trip ie sat a guy go's hunting 12 times a year down here there every chance that you can kill a deer everytime (not saying that's the case everywhere). Everytime you shoot a stag then you don't shoot a hind and now as a hunter you had the ability to knock out 12 animals with a maximum equivalent of 60 by shooting all hinds. If say 4 of those trips fall in the summer and roar as many do. Just seems a waste of resources. If I was paying someone to cull by foot in open ish areas where glassing is an option I would expect them to try wherever possible to shoot hinds to make the best use of money spent. In bush hunting obviously this changes significantly and a take what you see approach begins to apply however on the herd management approach side of things I just see it as a bit of a shame but I understand it. There just less of a detriment leaving stags as leaving one stag means next year its still just one stag and the year after its still just one whereas leaving a hind is a 2 deer the next year and 3 the next and 5 the next and so on and so on. It's just a scale and everyone dall on a different balance.

I think we agree completely and it's just different hunting areas that lead to different veiw points. Also if I'm hunting say the Kaimais like when I was young I'm pretty I'd struggle to warrant turning down any stag unless I had a really good chance of getting a hind instead which is alway a gamble and leads back to the age old gambit of a bird in the hand in worth two in the bush or in that case 5.

Originally Posted by Stocky

I get it and to the guy that do haul out loads of full stags as I'm sure they exist I envy them but I also hope they can still get out when they are older as theirs more than a pig hunter or 2 with damaged knees and backs from carrying them out whole.

The only thing in there that I think you are missing or maybe just don't see the same value in as I do, is that I'm not just shooting an extra one because I can I shooting it as shooting another hind is like controlling the population by 5-7 animals. Its not I like shooting them in fact while I say I would it's very rare I do this. Most I've ever shot was two hinds and I felt the same sentiment you do and tried to take back steaks, tenderloins, rear quarters, the hearts and the 1 front shoulder that wasn't minced. That also the trip I did my knee with repeated loading going down and uphill for a sustained trip.

Last Saturday I was getting out as the masses descended on where I was hunting and knew where a hind an Yearling where hand to a track and the road in a little scrub covered basin. To try save as much meat as possible I flicked a message to my partner to come walk in the dark at 4 am to meet me at first light with a mostly empty pack to knock these both over and still be able to haul most of them off the hill. Unfortunately the rain set of the stags and getting distracted meant they had gone to cover by the time we came back from them and there was only a chammy buck hanging out. Who I left as I've been fortunate to take a number of good bucks and where he was meant it was kind of likely he could end up a young hunters or somebodies first buck and a good one at that.

So while I completely understand your choice I see population control as our duty as its hard to bitch about culls etc when we bring it on ourselves. I've said before I'd love to see WARO restricted to hinds and maybe one day partially subsidised in areas of high populations or fragile environments that mean the private sector can fund or partially fund culling in the least detrimental way to recreational hunters because while I think we should help where possible some areas its not possible to do on foot.

Yep I understand . And as I mentioned I generally only shoot hinds anyway as where I hunt doc there's a shit load of hunters (7 at the hut a few trips back not inc my lot) there's few stags around that I see besides spikers which I am happy to leave alone as they may grow into decent specimens . In fact , I have only ever shot 1 fallow stag , every fallow has been female . Last walk in for 4 days we kept seeing the same red hind with fawn but left them alone , took a fallow hind on the last morning . I guess we could/should have taken the red but the thought of bowling mum and young doesn't appeal to me , even if it means leaving empty handed.
But again to be honest , thats more a case of it being generally females I see rather than stags , and even the spikers have usually had a female or two close by which I shoot instead . If the choice was spiker/stag or nothing ... well , I don't walk all that way for nothing.....

This is what you need @Stocky, a Graf Boys carry frame https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgAhw2Uwhas
I made my one for under ten bucks in materials ( it is in the photo with the stag and rifle above). You are welcome to borrow it for a try, doesnt make the deer any lighter but lowers the COG so that sidling is easy and there is no fighting for balance

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

This is what you need @Stocky, a Graf Boys carry frame https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgAhw2Uwhas
I made my one for under ten bucks in materials ( it is in the photo with the stag and rifle above). You are welcome to borrow it for a try, doesnt make the deer any lighter but lowers the COG so that sidling is easy and there is no fighting for balance

Not sold, my qualms aren't with comfort they are with load through joints etc. I don't see it working well with bone removed. Sure it's fine for mellow semi open bush stuff but there's no way I'm putting a deer across sideways like that coming down a bush spur with no track that often are steep enough I'm already getting hung up by my pack. My pack carry weight well with the load shelf. I do enough dumb shit I don't need to be crippled by the time I'm 60. My father did stuff like this now there's not a hope in hell he'd hunt anywhere I do and he's still got 5 years to 60.

Originally Posted by Stocky

Not sold, my qualms aren't with comfort they are with load through joints etc. I don't see it working well with bone removed. Sure it's fine for mellow semi open bush stuff but there's no way I'm putting a deer across sideways like that coming down a bush spur with no track that often are steep enough I'm already getting hung up by my pack. My pack carry weight well with the load shelf. I do enough dumb shit I don't need to be crippled by the time I'm 60. My father did stuff like this now there's not a hope in hell he'd hunt anywhere I do and he's still got 5 years to 60.

If your father had a Hereford Stud he would be injury free, it's those mad Angus that do the damage, dont blame it on carrying deer !
I often shoot deer right on dark and it is easier to whip the guts out and carry it back rather than trying to cut it up in the dark.
The 'Graf' frame will carry a cut up deer in a bag. Thats what I did with the boned out stag a few posts back, shot in the evening and carried out next day. It was very long in the body and really heavy 80kg incl the pack, phew