Thread: Access to AR s are about to change

Originally Posted by ebf

Mikee, for pistol you also need to be a member of a PNZ affiliated club, the club has to say that you are ok, and you have to keep competing if you want your renewal to go thru not so ?

The club is vouching for you in terms of having shown enough dedication to attend shoots for 6 months, safe range behaviours and good safety record.

I like that kind of system, coz it weeds out some of the Rambo types and guys who make snap decisions.

It also weeds out many possible members who would like to own and shoot a pistol but simply cannot fullfil the no of range visits required.:thumbdown:

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Originally Posted by veitnamcam

It also weeds out many possible members who would like to own and shoot a pistol but simply cannot fullfil the no of range visits required.:thumbdown:

My personal experience is that the pistol vetting has stopped people who are clearly unsafe around them from gaining their B, despite being A license holders. I feel the current system has prevented more accidental shootings by a pistol, unlike the current rifle and shotgun accidental shootings that still occur.

Originally Posted by ebf

Mikee, for pistol you also need to be a member of a PNZ affiliated club, the club has to say that you are ok, and you have to keep competing if you want your renewal to go thru not so ?

The club is vouching for you in terms of having shown enough dedication to attend shoots for 6 months, safe range behaviours and good safety record.

I like that kind of system, coz it weeds out some of the Rambo types and guys who make snap decisions.

I know this cause I have had my B for 20 years (about to let it go though) but I still cant see how it means I am more fit and proper.

I do have no issue with the way handguns are dealt with as they are easily concealable and really not that suitable for anything other than target shooting

as an aside the events that give me the most "hebies" are the annual duck shooters eye opener shoots, Once a year shooters with semi's they are not familiar enough with make me cringe.Barrels waving all over the show etc

Originally Posted by ebf

Mikee, for pistol you also need to be a member of a PNZ affiliated club, the club has to say that you are ok, and you have to keep competing if you want your renewal to go thru not so ?

The club is vouching for you in terms of having shown enough dedication to attend shoots for 6 months, safe range behaviours and good safety record.

I like that kind of system, coz it weeds out some of the Rambo types and guys who make snap decisions.

Not sure that affiliation thing is gospel these days, think there are a couple clubs not affiliated that have been sanctioned. Also I'd be interested to know if any prospective B catter has been rejected by his club after the probie period due to unsafe practice etc and not ended up with a b endorsement. If any haven't, then the system is not working. Reason I bring that up is I have seen some dodgy shite at more than one club I was a member of. Usually from "imports", and I've thought, "how the f did they get through...?" Now if the clubs are doing their job properly, there would have to be a pertcentage of people not being sponsored through to their B, right? If everyone that try's gets their B, it's a mockery of the process.

Originally Posted by ebf

I like that kind of system, coz it weeds out some of the Rambo types .

Some??
I've seen more Rambos at pistol clubs that anywhere else.
Those that are 'armed (or disarmed?) forces' for the period of 1 wks basic, police college dropouts, security, and every other wannabe.
They are everywhere at the clubs I've been members of.
It ATTRACTS them.

Originally Posted by Spanners

Some??
I've seen more Rambos at pistol clubs that anywhere else.
Those that are 'armed (or disarmed?) forces' for the period of 1 wks basic, police college dropouts, security, and every other wannabe.
They are everywhere at the clubs I've been members of.
It ATTRACTS them.

Yup, but were they just having a go or full endorsement level ?

Originally Posted by ebf

Do you understand the reasons for more restrictions on handguns ? Or do you see handguns and semi rifles in the same light and believe anyone should be able to have one ?

And again EBF I am not trying to argue too much
but
Yes, yes and again Fit and Proper is Fit and Proper, maybe be different security requirements.
Just because I have been vetted 3 times and have regularly inspected security does that actually make me more "fitter and properer" and anyone else who has a std licence.

Put the other way how can someone deemed not "fit and proper" on an endorsement application be still considered fit and proper to retain the std license they already hold?

Happy, range behaviour. Very rarely see other people in the bush, mostly go mid week.

No AR. Had FN FAL and M1 carbine, never really been a fan of 223 (holes are too bloody tiny )

Wangers sounds like a plan (shot the fallow spiker there last year) will talk to you offline.

Originally Posted by ebf

Happy, range behaviour. Very rarely see other people in the bush, mostly go mid week.

No AR. Had FN FAL and M1 carbine, never really been a fan of 223 (holes are too bloody tiny )

Wangers sounds like a plan (shot the fallow spiker there last year) will talk to you offline.

There's a pretty good chance that I'm one of those at the range who are 'blasting away'. What I'll actually be doing is practicing for my next service rifle comp. I'm not 'blasting away' I'm working on improving my shot to shot recovery and maintaining accuracy so that I'm able to compete safely and competitively. I'm also going to be practicing shooting off-hand, sitting and kneeling, all of which are useful skills for hunting. I'll be doing this against the clock, which is also good training for making good decisions and good, safe, shots under pressure.

Personally, I feel a damn sight safer next to someone with a semi 'blasting away' who demonstrates good handling and safety skills, than I do in the weeks leading up to the roar when I see more dangerous behaviour with firearms than at any other time of the year.

The reality is that semi's have always been with us. They have been, and will always be, A cat. Anyone who tries to argue that an AR is somehow more dangerous than an sks, m305, rem woodmaster, camp carbine, or BAR seems to me to have an axe to grind which centres a lot more on looks than function.

And my apologies to you EBF if I sounded a bit ranty but its just theone thing I have the most trouble understanding (the whole fit and proper thing)

The clubs will collectively decide within their own units what is and isn't acceptable conduct. I can only imagine that the majority of licensed gun owners who bother to go through the B endorsement process, aren't the type who will stand out as dodgy. I don't really know what other peoples definition of dodgy is. I have witnessed certain clicks in certain clubs throwing a tanty because they think the actions/conduct of one half put the sport at risk. It's usually just chicken little bullshit from people who can't handle change.

When I was on the committee of a pistol club we turned away a few people during the probationary period,and said we didn't want some others who transferred to us already endorsed once we got to know them. We also had people who made it thru our probationary period who seemed to change once they had there own pistol at home-some bucked up,some got shipped out.
A common trend was folks trying to just show up to sign the book.a fairly high percentage of our clubs "rejects" just joined another club.

Originally Posted by res

When I was on the committee of a pistol club we turned away a few people during the probationary period,and said we didn't want some others who transferred to us already endorsed once we got to know them. We also had people who made it thru our probationary period who seemed to change once they had there own pistol at home-some bucked up,some got shipped out.
A common trend was folks trying to just show up to sign the book.a fairly high percentage of our clubs "rejects" just joined another club.

Well that's good to know, that for at least one club, the club vetting process is actually taken seriously and filters out some punters.

Originally Posted by ishoot10s

Well that's good to know, that for at least one club, the club vetting process is actually taken seriously and filters out some punters.

I think you miss understand me, apart from one notable exception I feel the whole exercise was pointless.we just had to do it. In fact I feel there should only be one level of licence(if there should be licensing at all) as I fail to see how there can be anything more than "fit and proper".
The concept that one poster put fwd that he was ok to have e style guns but others are not stagers me.

Its an interesting discussion so ill lend my views.

I believe that E cats should very very tightly controlled. You should only be allowed one for a very valid reason not just cause you want one.

The recent availability to buy AR s as an A cat was in my view stupidity. These made weapons of this nature much more accessible to nasty bad people. Not all firearms owners are suitable firearms owners they have just never been caught at much and therefore the police have no reason to refuse them a licence. For example you could waltz into your gun store buy an AR and walk down the road and sell it to your local Mongrel Mob dealer for a tidy profit. They file off the number and there is nothing tying it back to the guy who bought it. He just says he sold it to a guy who had a licence and no proof is required that this happened. With an E gun this cannot happen as they are kept track off.

New Zealand black market is not quite like the states where they have access to racks of uzis and AKs and Id like this to stay that way. The easy access of these guns as an A Cat means that more of them filter down into criminal hands weather they are sold to them or they are stolen from under secured A cat safes etc. Getting a large capacity mag is an easy step from there.

Its all just a numbers game. The more of these guns out there increases the chances that sooner or later some nut job is gonna have his cheese slide off his cracker and go all Colombine. Then we are all fucked. As then knee jerk politicians WILL jerk all there knees at once and semis will all be gone like in Aussie.

The fact of the matter is that guns like this in the wrong hands are fucken scary. Listening to Jan Molenar rattle of full clips one after the other was enough to make you piss your pants. A bolt gun with 3 bullets in it just isnt that scary and is much easier to deal with from a tactics perspective.

I have an E cause I want one not because I need it to do a job and I love having it.

I trust myself to own a gun like this I just don't trust everyone else to own one.