Thread: Educate me on bushpigs

I did agree saying suppressors helped a bit. I find elec muffs very good, nothing is perfect though but I can celebrate differences from you.

Are you a tree stand hunter? I have been aware of some claims that modern electronics can filter out background noise and wind noise, but wearing muffs while actively hunting is just unpleasant.

Never claimed to be normal. As I got better I shot less, better shooting so fewer shots needed and got more selective, simply didnt feel any need to shoot just because I had the opportunity. If you shoot everything when you have the opportunity then that's another difference we can celebrate.

It was an obvious point that you seem intent on missing sort of like the noise issue being significantly lessened above. You ought to work out the difference between hunting and shooting.

I think you mean "Ballistics".
The best powder for velocity is dictated by the bullet /cartridge relationship irrelevant of barrel lenght. Standard pistol cartridges are small in case size, large in caliber and generally light for cal bullets. That is a recipe for fast powder. A slower powder would work better but you simply cant fit enough of it in the case. Put that pistol cal in a carbine and the recipe will remain the same. Take a larger cartridge say 7mm08, compare the published data for both pistol and rifle, you will find the powder recommendations will be around the same in burn rate. IIRC I think 2208 is very popular for both.
i could drag up the graphs of chamber pressure , bullet travel , area under curve etc Like I have in the past but I cant be arsed doing it all again so do some research and find out for yourself or cling to your misconception.

Well I just might have to... because I don't see anything other than talk about it, rather than some actual testing of the specific idea. Chamber size may have material effect on the suitability of powder selection in terms of how fast it is, but what I haven't seen is say a direct comparison between the same 22" barrel and 16" barrel with faster and slower powders and the same projectiles in order to determine what exactly happens... in say a 708/308 of the type of rifle that we are talking about here.

While pressure and burn can be understood simply enough in theory, the effect of faster burn/slower burn, on velocity and acceleration in longer and shorter barrels with those different powders, is probably best established by experiment.

What may have be happening locally of course is that when the active promoters of the short barrel suppressed rifle concepts are building these things, they also tend to drop projectile weights when chopping the barrels... that makes the actual effect somewhat murky...

However when differing powders have different outcomes in the same length barrel with the same projectiles loaded to the same max safe pressures, it would appear irrational to suggest that is not the case when barrel length is changed. Your argument of course is that performance remains constant whilst shortened relatively speaking. I haven't seen that being obvious in my playing around..

Of course I have never suggested that I can regain all of the speed lost simply by moving to a faster powder. Just that a faster powder might be more efficient at getting faster speeds in shorter barrels everything else being equal.

I would like to see a specific experiment.. if you are aware of one.. but relying on load data from inconsistent sources is hardly conclusive..

Originally Posted by Sidney

Are you a tree stand hunter? I have been aware of some claims that modern electronics can filter out background noise and wind noise, but wearing muffs while actively hunting is just unpleasant.
.

Sit down Sidney because this may come as a shock but you are not the sole arbiter of everything I do, feel or think, so what actually you mean is YOU ( Sidney) find muffs unpleasant,maybe others as well buy who really knows.
I did spend some time in a tree on Stuart Is. I saw 2 deer but panicked when I realized I was in the bush with a rifle that was out of fashion and had a 23 inch barrel so didn't shoot. I did recover after some counseling and managed to completely fluke 3 white tail for the trip with my useless rifle. I think I even put a report in the magazine section here.

Originally Posted by Sidney

It was an obvious point that you seem intent on missing sort of like the noise issue being significantly lessened above. You ought to work out the difference between hunting and shooting.

I hunt with a rifle so hunting and shooting are inseparably intertwined. Your interpretations of my reply's are perplexing , Have you been tested for dyslexia?

Originally Posted by Sidney

Of course I have never suggested that I can regain all of the speed lost simply by moving to a faster powder. Just that a faster powder might be more efficient at getting faster speeds in shorter barrels everything else being equal.

I would like to see a specific experiment.. if you are aware of one.. but relying on load data from inconsistent sources is hardly conclusive..

Let me remind you what you said, from post #43 "Besides, reloaders using faster powders can make up most of any speed lost from shortened barrels."
And from post #56 "Bullocks - try shooting slow powders through pistols and getting the same performance... everything is a continuum chap and slow powder performance gets optimised in longer barrels. Conversely faster powers are optimised in shorter barrels."

I'm not doing your research for you. Actually I have no problem with the thought of you continuing on in your beliefs as they are.

Originally Posted by sneeze

Sit down Sidney because this may come as a shock but you are not the sole arbiter of everything I do, feel or think, so what actually you mean is YOU ( Sidney) find muffs unpleasant,maybe others as well buy who really knows.
I did spend some time in a tree on Stuart Is. I saw 2 deer but panicked when I realized I was in the bush with a rifle that was out of fashion and had a 23 inch barrel so didn't shoot. I did recover after some counseling and managed to completely fluke 3 white tail for the trip with my useless rifle. I think I even put a report in the magazine section here.




I hunt with a rifle so hunting and shooting are inseparably intertwined. Your interpretations of my reply's are perplexing , Have you been tested for dyslexia?


Let me remind you what you said, from post #43 "Besides, reloaders using faster powders can make up most of any speed lost from shortened barrels."
And from post #56 "Bullocks - try shooting slow powders through pistols and getting the same performance... everything is a continuum chap and slow powder performance gets optimised in longer barrels. Conversely faster powers are optimised in shorter barrels."

I'm not doing your research for you. Actually I have no problem with the thought of you continuing on in your beliefs as they are.

You can lead someone to water but......

I will just say.

Why would the cartridge care what length the barrel is.....it wouldn't.

If you are getting velocity "back" by running faster powder it is even more velocity you could have had in the longer barrel with the same load....you have gained nothing more than more pressure.

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

You can lead someone to water but......

I will just say.

Why would the cartridge care what length the barrel is.....it wouldn't.

If you are getting velocity "back" by running faster powder it is even more velocity you could have had in the longer barrel with the same load....you have gained nothing more than more pressure.

Its a strong human trait to cling to our first belief no matter how illogical.

Originally Posted by sneeze

Its a strong human trait to cling to our first belief no matter how illogical.

What do you mean Willis! "The worlds not flat"!?

Our my first human belief "If Eve wore a leave I'm sure Adam wore a hole in it"!

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

You can lead someone to water but......

I will just say.

Why would the cartridge care what length the barrel is.....it wouldn't.

If you are getting velocity "back" by running faster powder it is even more velocity you could have had in the longer barrel with the same load....you have gained nothing more than more pressure.

Lead me to water then... Its not about the cartridge is it? The cartridge is a constant. Its about the powder in the cartridge...

Pressure, duration and acceleration all have some bearing on velocity, to suggest that there is no variation to relative performance, by vastly different powder specifications in different barrel lengths seems unlikely from a physics perspective. It may be insignificant or minor but none??.... wheres the direct evidence that can show us those results..?

I ran some numbers through quickload last night as I was working up some loads for a 16" barreled .308.
Its only a prediction of course, but I ran the numbers using a 175gr sierra matchking at max loads with both AR2206 and AR2208 powder. It was predicted that the AR2208 although a slower powder, still pushed a higher velocity than the faster burning 2206 through the 16" barrel.
You could of course fit more of the 2206 in the case so could potentially run a charge above the max published load and get more velocity then you could with the slower burning powder - as you can only fit so much of the slower powder in the case.

Originally Posted by ChrisW

I ran some numbers through quickload last night as I was working up some loads for a 16" barreled .308.
Its only a prediction of course, but I ran the numbers using a 175gr sierra matchking at max loads with both AR2206 and AR2208 powder. It was predicted that the AR2208 although a slower powder, still pushed a higher velocity than the faster burning 2206 through the 16" barrel.
You could of course fit more of the 2206 in the case so could potentially run a charge above the max published load and get more velocity then you could with the slower burning powder - as you can only fit so much of the slower powder in the case.

Hey Chris,
What would be the figures with a 125/130 grain bullet? as a lot of guys are using that weight class for the short distances in bush shooting.

Originally Posted by Friwi

Hey Chris,
What would be the figures with a 125/130 grain bullet? as a lot of guys are using that weight class for the short distances in bush shooting.

Sierra 125gr, 16" barrel vs 24" barrel with a variety of different powders.

ADI lists max charge as 50gr of 2208, which quickload predicts will go at 2869fps with 16" barrel. QL suggests same load will do 3152 with a 24" barrel

2206H, max charge listed as 49gr, which quickload predicsts will go at 2896fps. QL suggests same load will do 3186 with a 24" barrel
2219 max charge listed as 45gr, QL predicts 2851fps. QL suggests same load will do 3126 with a 24" barrel
2207 max charge = 39.5, QL predicts 2778fps. QL suggests same load will do 3023 with a 24" barrel

So we can conclude that QL predicts that the powder that will produce the most FPS from a long barrel, will also produce the most FPS in a short barrel for a given projectile weight.
I cant comment on if this would translate into real world or not but those are the predictions nonetheless.

I would think that real world FPS would be slightly higher than above as I kept the COAL the same as when I was messing with the 175gr load -- in reality the COAL would be shorter with the 125gr load, which will produce a bit more pressure and a bit more FPS. The general conclusion remains the same though.

Originally Posted by Friwi

Hey Chris,
What would be the figures with a 125/130 grain bullet? as a lot of guys are using that weight class for the short distances in bush shooting.

I was thinking about this and then I read @ChrisW’s numbers (thanks Chris)... I would have thought that those kinds of velocities (~2900fps) would be too messy with frangible bullets, lot of meat damage, big holes, at close range?
@Shearer, what do you see with the Accubonds? Being a tough bullet I expect they fly straight through the animal?


When I was a kid my Grandpa always went the ‘slow and heavy’ route for carbines at close range for woodland deer, so that’s what I’ve always done since with good outcomes, especially on big reds. I was planning on 165-180gr in my .308 18” that I’m getting done soon at DPT.


Any comments on why light for calibre is better other than just being faster?


The 170gr flat nose ProHunters go bloody well on deer out of a short 308 at close-ish range, say sub 150m. The 150gr round nose ProHunters likewise.

Just do it bro. Haters gonna hate.

16" mod 7. Shes 2.7 kg all up and not too bad to shoot. Deer out to 380 odd and gongs out till I run out of dial 165 NBT doing 2650 so plenty of grunt out to 500

Reason I wanted a pig was.....well anyone ever hunted the Kaimai's

Originally Posted by Gibo

Just do it bro. Haters gonna hate.

16" mod 7. Shes 2.7 kg all up and not too bad to shoot. Deer out to 380 odd and gongs out till I run out of dial 165 NBT doing 2650 so plenty of grunt out to 500

Reason I wanted a pig was.....well anyone ever hunted the Kaimai's

Attachment 98733

@VTR, your M7 7Saum could look like this (or close enough, maybe 17-18" but with a Magnum DPT) get it into DPT and see if they will be happy to shorten and thread on the flutes.

You whitnessed what a 17" 284 with Amax at 2700 can do, an 18" 7Saum will only be better that than, 2800+ fps probably. Get into it

Originally Posted by Gibo

Just do it bro. Haters gonna hate.

16" mod 7. Shes 2.7 kg all up and not too bad to shoot. Deer out to 380 odd and gongs out till I run out of dial 165 NBT doing 2650 so plenty of grunt out to 500

Reason I wanted a pig was.....well anyone ever hunted the Kaimai's

Attachment 98733

Nice set up you have there @Gibo

Originally Posted by Gibo

Just do it bro. Haters gonna hate.

16" mod 7. Shes 2.7 kg all up and not too bad to shoot. Deer out to 380 odd and gongs out till I run out of dial 165 NBT doing 2650 so plenty of grunt out to 500

Reason I wanted a pig was.....well anyone ever hunted the Kaimai's

Attachment 98733

looks more like a show pony than a bush pig

Originally Posted by Paddy79

looks more like a show pony than a bush pig

Yip, full blown safe queen