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Thread: Here we go folks

  1. #46
    Member 40mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by csmiffy View Post
    aren't sawn off (not professionally shortened, registered and legal class) firearms illegal already? WTF do we need more legislation for.
    Is it the MP's fault or the coppers trying to push their agenda again?
    I think the mp's are paid to do a job and that job includes knowing what they are about to release from their pathetic mouths. So if they dont do sufficient research then they deserve all the abuse that comes their way.

    if I cock up, i pay for it, so can they.
    veitnamcam and Tommy like this.
    Use enough gun

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by systolic View Post
    It's a good thing no-one jumped to conclusions and started firing off abusive or nose-out-of-joint emails before finding out exactly what was actually intended by this proposed amendment.
    ...problem is with poorly drafted legislation, is that the Courts have to interpret and "guess" at Parliaments intention.... guess who pays for being a test case.
    Otherwise - well done on pointing out that some have taken a very dim view of the proposals; now ask yourself: can you blame anyone for questioning everything that is proposed?

  3. #48
    Member 40mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    Yeah but gangs don't follow the f#%king rules!?! Throw all the legislation you want at them and waste our taxes too, it ain't gonna do shit.

    Also, the response he or his office provided to you ^^^ is an our right lie, if it were true then why does it only mention "special reasons" to possess shortened rifles? And having a valid 12 month permit?? Not to mention "hand-in's" for destruction with no compensation etc...

    My counter-response to him would be: If what you are saying was remotely true, then this "draft" would ascertain harsher penalties to real criminals and gangs - Not have it written so it target's law abiding firearm owner's and implements more hoops for us to jump through, that ultimately makes zero difference at all. As it stands, it's the latter of the two.

    It seems they will never admit their true intentions to us but we will continue to push back - Relentlessly.
    treat all politicians and police representatives the same, liars until proven otherwise. then proceed with extreme caution.
    Steve123 likes this.
    Use enough gun

  4. #49
    Member gadgetman's Avatar
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    My letter.

    Alastair Scott

    Proposed Firearms Act Shortened Firearms Amendment

    I have studied this draft that you have proposed and am at a complete loss as to it’s purpose and expected outcome.

    There are many good reasons to shorten a firearm, ranging from to repair damage, make the firearm a good length to fit across a quad bike for farmers and hunters, make the firearm a good fit for users (great for teaching the young safe use), fitting sound suppressors which is good for both humans, dogs and not alert prey. There are many, many more legitimate reasons for shortening a firearm.

    As is stands the proposal would affect every responsible firearms owner that I know. I have been thinking very hard about this and cannot think of one that this would not affect. The cost of the required buy back for the government would be heading towards the billions of dollars. Without a buy back there would be a massive voter backlash come the next election with about quarter of a million licensed firearms owners, and probably at least double that with affected family members no longer able to participate and financially affected.

    Section 38B (2) (a) (ii) seems to indicate that any shortening will put the firearm into the category of pistol. Yet this is already covered in current legislation. Completely negating this entire proposed amendment.

    Section 38B (5) thus seems to be increase the frequency of renewal of permits, which after the massive increase of applicable firearms covered by section 38A will put a massive administrative burden on police. This will take them away from their other duties of actually fighting crimes.

    In summary, this proposed amendment would serve absolutely no good purpose and should be abandoned as it is already covered by current legislation. What is missing is the effective application of the current legislation through police and judiciary.

    It will either:

    Make legitimate responsible voting licensed firearms owners into unintentional criminals or financially burden them.

    Increase the administrative burden of both police and users, taking police resources away form fighting crimes.

    Through inconveniencing farmers and hunters affect the ability to control pests on farms, lowering productivity and ultimately the countries productivity, whilst simultaneously increasing financial burden on the same.

    Do nothing to deter the current criminal sector. Will they stop on the middle of holding up a dairy or bottle store, having stolen a car to drive there (likely with no valid drivers license), with a stolen firearm that they are currently not licensed for either, that they have chopped to a length that would make it a pistol, and think “Oh I need to whip down to the police station to get a permit for this thing”? They have already broken many laws that they had no intention a obeying, will one for make a difference? The penalty of the new law will likely be served consecutively with some of the others making it completely ineffective also.


    Yours faithfully
    There are only three types of people in this world. Those that can count, and those that can't!

  5. #50
    ebf
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    Quote Originally Posted by systolic View Post
    It's a good thing no-one jumped to conclusions and started firing off abusive or nose-out-of-joint emails before finding out exactly what was actually intended by this proposed amendment.
    @systolic, do you believe the proposal as it is worded is

    a) even remotely workable ?
    b) well researched ?
    c) something that the average law-abiding firearms owner would approve of ?
    d) the level of quality in legal drafting we could expect from a member of parliament

    Intent has nothing to do with it. What we have here is an embarrassingly poor proposal by an MP that reflects not only on himself, but also on his colleagues (do they just allow anyone to draft what they want without any quality control ?)
    Nickoli, Tommy and Sasquatch like this.
    Viva la Howa ! R.I.P. Toby

  6. #51
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    Here is a reply i just received from Alastair Scott

    "Thanks for your comments on the draft document. the wording will be changed to be more specific, referencing 762mm. The purpose is to increase penalties for gangs. Not to be a nuisance to legitimate users."


    Regards


    Alastair


    So are they re inventing the wheel here, seems like a waste of bloody time and Money.
    .

  7. #52
    Member gadgetman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malhunting View Post
    Here is a reply i just received from Alastair Scott

    "Thanks for your comments on the draft document. the wording will be changed to be more specific, referencing 762mm. The purpose is to increase penalties for gangs. Not to be a nuisance to legitimate users."


    Regards


    Alastair


    So are they re inventing the wheel here, seems like a waste of bloody time and Money.
    .
    So all they really need to do is change the penalties in the current legislation. Not that the crims are likely to bother looking them up before ignoring them.
    There are only three types of people in this world. Those that can count, and those that can't!

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetman View Post
    So all they really need to do is change the penalties in the current legislation. Not that the crims are likely to bother looking them up before ignoring them.
    Exactly!

    https://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2018/07/a...ing-something/
    Identify your target beyond all doubt

  9. #54
    Member gadgetman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
    And they're not looking at much change from the current penalties.

    45 Carrying or possession of firearms, airguns, pistols, restricted weapons, or explosives, except for lawful, proper, and sufficient purpose

    (1)

    Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 4 years or to a fine not exceeding $5,000 or to both who, except for some lawful, proper, and sufficient purpose,—
    (a)

    carries; or
    (b)

    is in possession of—

    any firearm, airgun, pistol, restricted weapon, or explosive.

    (2)

    In any prosecution for an offence against subsection (1) in which it is proved that the defendant was carrying or in possession of any firearm, airgun, pistol, restricted weapon, or explosive, as the case may require, the burden of proving the existence of some lawful, proper, and sufficient purpose shall lie on the defendant.
    50 Unlawful possession of pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or restricted weapon

    (1)

    Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to a fine not exceeding $4,000 or to both who—
    (a)

    is in possession of a pistol and is not a person authorised or permitted, expressly or by implication, by or pursuant to this Act, to be in possession of that pistol; or
    (b)

    is in possession of a restricted weapon and is not a person authorised or permitted, expressly or by implication, by or pursuant to this Act, to be in possession of that restricted weapon; or
    (c)

    is in possession of a military style semi-automatic firearm and is not a person authorised or permitted, expressly or by implication, by or pursuant to this Act, to be in possession of that military style semi-automatic firearm.
    There are only three types of people in this world. Those that can count, and those that can't!

  10. #55
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    I’m seeing stuff on Facebook about this, it looks like they have listened to us, so well done to all who have helped

  11. #56
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    From Chris Bishop National’s Spokesperson for Police

    The National Party is doing some work around the penalties for criminal use of firearms particularly by gangs. We want to make it harder for gangs to get firearms and easier to hold them to account when they do. This makes our communities safer and that’s a real focus for the National Party. However we must always work to find the right balance, and we will be very careful not to impinge on the rights of legitimate firearms users.

    As part of these efforts Alastair Scott MP has been exploring ideas to look at raising the penalties for possessing and using sawn off rifles and shotguns. The feedback coming through from legitimate firearm users and the various associations has been very clear and very helpful and will be reflected in any legislative proposal.

    We will listen and we will address your concerns. The current proposal is an idea and has not been discussed by the National caucus yet, nor has any bill been entered in the Parliamentary ballot. The draft that Alistair has circulated for feedback will need to be changed to focus more on penalties instead of a permitting system before we consider it further. We will make sure we get the balance right and we will make sure legitimate users aren’t adversely affected.

    As Police spokesperson, I am very keen to engage with licenced firearm owners. Later in the year along with your local National MPs I will be holding a series of “National Firearms Forums” where licenced firearms owners will have the opportunity to meet me and in some cases our Justice spokesperson Mark Mitchell. The forums will be a great opportunity for licenced firearm owners shape our policy going into 2020. The sessions will primarily be held in the evening to allow people to attend after work and will be held in as many parts of the country as feasibly possible.

    If you have any comments or questions please email me: Chris.bishop@parliament.govt.nz
    gadgetman likes this.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetroot View Post
    I think he means he has had a good amount of feedback.

    I think he actually had the best of intentions with the bill, but didn't realise the impact of leaving out a few key words.


    I think this whole debacle along with the on going AR15 one is actually good they have happened together.
    It's shown both the Police and MPs the firearms owners are very proactive in looking after the rights they have and are willing to stand up for them.
    But at the same time the majority of owners are also very keen to see harsher penalties for the criminals whole do break the law.

    I just hope that all of or at least most of the submissions have be well thought out and written intelligently, not just saying " if use tri 2 tak my gunz il fkn stab u pig shit cahnt".
    So an honest mistake like Trumps last *&^% up?

  13. #58
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    Obviously being inundated with negative feedback has had some effect.

    Good to see other on-line sources are spreading the word quickly too
    Cats have nine lives-which makes them ideal for experimentation...

  14. #59
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    Sent email to Mr Scott and copied in my electorate MP.
    gadgetman likes this.
    Welcome to Sako club.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebf View Post
    @systolic, do you believe the proposal as it is worded is

    a) even remotely workable ?
    b) well researched ?
    c) something that the average law-abiding firearms owner would approve of ?
    d) the level of quality in legal drafting we could expect from a member of parliament

    Intent has nothing to do with it. What we have here is an embarrassingly poor proposal by an MP that reflects not only on himself, but also on his colleagues (do they just allow anyone to draft what they want without any quality control ?)
    @ebf

    Answer to your questions..
    a) Nope, not even remotely workable
    b) Nope, not even remotely researched
    c) Nope, no average law abidning firearms owner would remotely approve
    d) Unfortunately, this is a big YES. As has been shown, this is exactly the sort of thing we can expect from a member of parliament. Especially one who thinks Chris Cahill is capable of telling the truth....
    veitnamcam, gadgetman, ebf and 3 others like this.

 

 

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