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Thread: Firearms Project Community Discussion Sessions: FCAF update

  1. #61
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    @ebf - no, he did not identify or introduce a Police Association representative. We had a different facilitator than the Wellington meeting as well.

    There was some discussion about the perception of the Police Association and how they are damaging the relationship between the Police and firearms community. Hence the suggestion Police publish their own facts rather than have the firearms community only seeing small quotes taken potentially out of context, Police Association propaganda, or the media bias.
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  2. #62
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    It was interesting at the Wellington session to see how adamant Mike was to make clear the Police and the Police Association are different entities. The PA representative was also very adamant they weren't a spokesperson and didn't engage any further.

    The audience suggested that Police call out that distinction more often in the media as the public had a perception that the Police and PA are the same and speak for each other.

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDrifter View Post
    It was interesting at the Wellington session to see how adamant Mike was to make clear the Police and the Police Association are different entities. The PA representative was also very adamant they weren't a spokesperson and didn't engage any further.

    The audience suggested that Police call out that distinction more often in the media as the public had a perception that the Police and PA are the same and speak for each other.

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    Last time I checked, cahills bio on the police association web site says he IS a detective inspector. I get the impression he is playing both sides of the fence representing himself as a police officer to establish delegated authority, and saying he is police association when it suits him - IPCA won't look at him and he has no accountability to nz police

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danger Mouse View Post
    Last time I checked, cahills bio on the police association web site says he IS a detective inspector. I get the impression he is playing both sides of the fence representing himself as a police officer to establish delegated authority, and saying he is police association when it suits him - IPCA won't look at him and he has no accountability to nz police
    And that is exactly what Cahill is there to do. The police specifically point out that the Police Association is a separate organization (it is a union for rank-and-file officers).

    What it means is that the police association can (and do) say things in the media which the NZ Police can not be seen to be saying...

    It is time we as the firearms community start playing the same game. Some are already...

    You will not get the IPCA to investigate the Police Association, nor will you get anywhere bitching to the NZ Police about them...
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  5. #65
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    I was at todays meeting , and I will put my hand up and say that I suggested the idea of the Police having a web page that was updated often with relevant information. I think that was reasonably received , and we may see that sometime in the future.

    The Police are not going to muzzle that idiot Cahill. That is patently obvious - the Police appear unwilling to even discuss issues with him. I asked what they were going to do to counteract the outright lies that the guy tells and I got a sanitized , politicians answer that basically went " blah blah blah" - so dont expect to see anything there. Very little interest in countering those lies in the media , and not a very popular view of social media either .

    But - Mike did listen , take notes , and appeared to be genuine . Only time will tell , I am not holding my breathe waiting...
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadgetman View Post
    If you read the purpose of the meetings it is to discuss how to interact and deliver services to the firearms community. So a pretty narrow scope they are wanting to deal with. This is not about the actual laws, rules, etc.
    @gadgetman

    They say that, but whatever comes out of it that suits them, they'll use for other agendas too, like shooters figuratively throwing other shooters under the bus. Not being cynical, just realistic.
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  7. #67
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    @Cordite, I find the whole concept of "shooters throwing other shooters under the bus" a bit strange.

    To expect all firearms users to share the same views is madness... People from all walks of life are firearms users, they have different requirements. To expect that a recreational hunter would have the same requirements as a top level Olympic or Comonwealth athlete is beyond me. Throw in some pistol shooters, service rifle competitors and the odd collector and you have about as diverse a group as you can get.

    Maybe I am just involved in a wide verity of firearms activities (I loooooove shooting ), but to be honest I think there is more that unites us than what divides us. Where things go pear-shaped is when people start expecting my views and requirements to match theirs EXACTLY and start thinking of me as a "traitor" when I have views that differ from theirs.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzza View Post
    I was at todays meeting , and I will put my hand up and say that I suggested the idea of the Police having a web page that was updated often with relevant information. I think that was reasonably received , and we may see that sometime in the future.

    The Police are not going to muzzle that idiot Cahill. That is patently obvious - the Police appear unwilling to even discuss issues with him. I asked what they were going to do to counteract the outright lies that the guy tells and I got a sanitized , politicians answer that basically went " blah blah blah" - so dont expect to see anything there. Very little interest in countering those lies in the media , and not a very popular view of social media either .

    But - Mike did listen , take notes , and appeared to be genuine . Only time will tell , I am not holding my breath waiting...
    @muzza

    Yes. Next time Cahill opens his mouth to spout rubbish, maybe best to simply state the facts. Then spend the rest of our energy on pointing out HOW CAHILL, AGAIN, IS IRRESPONSIBLY DAMAGING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN LFAO'S AND POLICE.

    Decent rank and file cops need to know they have someone harmful [mis]representing them!

    Cahill was made NZPA President in 2016 for a three year term, and so is up for re-election October 2019 at the Annual NZPA Conference if he seeks re-election. If keen on re-election, one would naturally expect Cahill to seek as much publicity, likely at LFAOs expense, over the coming year and a bit. . He needs to get called out for what damage he is causing with his mouth, but less engagement with his rubbish.

    @ebf

    Yes, slightly differing views will always be with us. The only real problem out there for shooters is apathy. And that most of us choose to work for our living and so we can't go to the meetings.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebf View Post
    @Cordite, I find the whole concept of "shooters throwing other shooters under the bus" a bit strange.
    The main divide between shooters that is most apparent to me has been between average-jo duck & deer hunters and people who shoot pistols/MSSA's. Their concept on the matter is "we don't need those type of guns" - We certainly wouldn't use them hunting so those guns should be gone. Even some pistol shooters are anti MSSA's.

    When you take a step back and try and look at it from an outside perspective, we all share a common hobby/sport we all enjoy. Why should one overrule the other? Just because one group might be a minority doesn't make them any less important. That it why we need to stand together on this critical matter and defend each others discipline.

    I care about deer hunters/long range shooters/clay-bird shooters - You name it! So they should return the favour.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    The main divide between shooters that is most apparent to me has been between average-joe duck & deer hunters and people who shoot pistols/MSSA's. Their concept on the matter is "we don't need those type of guns" - We certainly wouldn't use them hunting so those guns should be gone. Even some pistol shooters are anti MSSA's.

    When you take a step back and try and look at it from an outside perspective, we all share a common hobby/sport we all enjoy. Why should one overrule the other? Just because one group might be a minority doesn't make them any less important. That it why we need to stand together on this critical matter and defend each others discipline.

    I care about deer hunters/long range shooters/clay-bird shooters - You name it! So they should return the favour.
    Hi @Sasquatch

    I'm sorry about pissing into your "high-capacity" magazines some months ago.

    (I did achieve to fill four of them though, helped in all fairness by the displacement of the cartridges).
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordite View Post
    Hi @Sasquatch

    I'm sorry about pissing into your "high-capacity" magazines some months ago.

    (I did achieve to fill four of them though, helped in all fairness by the displacement of the cartridges).
    @Cordite If memory serves me right was that about service rifle shooting? No need for an apology your're all good :-)
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    The main divide between shooters that is most apparent to me has been between average-jo duck & deer hunters and people who shoot pistols/MSSA's. Their concept on the matter is "we don't need those type of guns" - We certainly wouldn't use them hunting so those guns should be gone. Even some pistol shooters are anti MSSA's.

    When you take a step back and try and look at it from an outside perspective, we all share a common hobby/sport we all enjoy. Why should one overrule the other? Just because one group might be a minority doesn't make them any less important. That it why we need to stand together on this critical matter and defend each others discipline.

    I care about deer hunters/long range shooters/clay-bird shooters - You name it! So they should return the favour.
    This very thing was bought up at the Taupo meeting. One particular gentleman got very vocal about how MSSA's and A cat semi autos are useless for hunting, and that all of them should be restricted to E endorsement holders, because A cat shooters shouldn't have the same firepower as the police. Ironically didn't have an issue with 10/22's or semi auto shotguns. Got very excited again when somebody mentioned E cat security should be the standard across the board, said it would alienate too many people...

    One of the main things to come out of our discussion, was that there should be an escalation for when you are having a dispute with an arms officer, without needing to take legal action, or attempt to use the IPCA (who are antigun and always rule in favour of police it seems)
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  13. #73
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    Did anyone counter that man's argument @Beavis?

    I struggle with people who choose to be that deliberately naive. Little does that ridiculous man know, LFAO's will always have more firepower then the police which is a pointless remark regardless.

  14. #74
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    Yup agree with what you guys are saying.

    Those differences were clear in Welly as well. What gets me is that most of the B and E endorsement holders are very well aware of the fact that they need to be self policing their mates. It is in their interest to do so. We do not have the same understanding amongst the average A license holders.

    Excellent point about escalation @Beavis, hopefully that gets some traction.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    Did anyone counter that man's argument @Beavis?

    I struggle with people who choose to be that deliberately naive. Little does that ridiculous man know, LFAO's will always have more firepower then the police which is a pointless remark regardless.
    I pointed out that:

    There really isn't much evidance to call for that - our firearm crime is really low, despite the proliferation of semi auto rifles

    The same A cat shooter can go to the local gun store and get a Beretta Extrema and fill it up with buck shot, have an equally deadly weapon depending on the circumstances

    But the conversation got shut down by Mike because it was irrelevant to the meeting.

    We also recommended that payment for licensing be facilitated online - Mike was keen on this, more or less said it should be a given in this day and age.

    I bought up examples of AO's interpreting the arms act to suit their own prejudices or what not. Mike stated that it is a training issue and they had dropped the ball on this. I also mentioned that front counter staff should be able to handle mail order forms without fobbing it off as no their responsibility. Another training issue to be resolved.
    Sasquatch likes this.

 

 

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