Thread: Supressors.

Got a Bee in your Bonnet today Spanners?

Doh!
Homer

Originally Posted by Homer

Got a Bee in your Bonnet today Spanners?

Doh!
Homer

No - just tring to get my head around a blanket statement telling me that after the blank is profiled/fluted etc, its THEN lapped.
It makes no sense, given the fact you pay a premium from the mfg for a lapped barrel
Lilja, Truflight, Krieger, Shilen - the most winningest barrel makers in the world supply the blanks prelapped

So basically, as a 'gunsmith', best results are gained from buying a pre profiled and lapped barrel from the mfg and screwing it on - I'm sorry, but that doesnt make you a guns smiths arsehole, it makes you a gun mechanic, just like a Toyota service technician isnt a race engine builder. Any monkey can fit a pre machined barrel.

However, in the real world, you ring up Mitch Maxbury (an ACTUAL gunsmith - with walls of trophys and medals to prove what he does works), Dead Eye Dicks, Truflight or anyone else that stocks blanks, and buy a premium barrel blank that has been lapped and air gauged at the factory and then deliver said barrel to your prefered 'gunsmith' for machining and fitting - I'm yet to find any pre profiled barrels on the shelf other a cancelled custom order.

Homer - Perhaps said suppressor maker should have taught you some tricks of the trade on suppressor building at the same time

can we keep it chill. cheers.

Well said Gimp. Spanners, you in particular as a moderator I would have thought, should be setting an example on the tone of this forum?

Spanners, have you dealt or communicated with any of the top USA barrel makers? You seem to have quite the wrong end of the stick. We have communicated with, purchased barrels off, and fitted Kriegers, Bartleins, Liljas, Broughtons and Pacnors. Mitch certainly is a great gunsmith, no doubt, and he will be sorely missed when he heads back to the USA to live shortly. Out of interest, have you asked his opinion on fluting???? You might be surprised at his answer! We have some straight blanks in stock, and have contoured and fluted some when required. Ian even cut an integral angled port muzzle brake into a 1.8” straight Lilja 7mm blank we had here. But we far prefer as do the premier benchrest gunsmiths and benchrest shooters in the world that the barrel manufacturer does the contouring and or fluting. They are set up to do this the most accurate way possible at the best time in the barrel manufacturing process, and it gives us a quicker turn around time. And any monkey can accurately set up, thread, chamber and crown a barrel? Really? Oh well, we must just be monkeys then!


KiwiGreg, please do not misrepresent what I said. You are trying to make black and white what is not. I never said threading or fluting will always detrimentally affect accuracy. I went to great length to explain the issues and the large variables at play here, which are real whether you accept them or not. By all means believe what you will, but we will be trying to do the best for our own rifles and those of our customers. This means using common sense and the commonly accepted best practise by the most recognised accuracy barrel makers and gunsmiths in the world. And that may well mean at times publishing the "inconvenient truth" which may well annoy some internet experts and NZ professionals set in their ways. So be it.
Greg

I asked Mitch to flute a barrel for me and he said no; it will ruin the accuracy!

Here's a nice (fluted) set up. Remington 7mm WSM | Trade Me

Originally Posted by Greg Duley

Well said Gimp. Spanners, you in particular as a moderator I would have thought, should be setting an example on the tone of this forum?

A different example was being made Greg, a reality check maybe - I'll leave for a while before explaining if its required - nothing to do with you though - so no need to stress

I'm a straight shooter, I say what I think - might not always go down well, but if I think you're a knobend, I'll tell you on the net, in the street or at the pub - I dont hide behind a keyboard, nor do I put up with mindless dribble from others or in my industry 'Noel'

Spanners, have you dealt or communicated with any of the top USA barrel makers?

I've dealt with all sorts of barrel makers.. the 25 barrels I got earlier this year all have 1/2 x 28tpi threads on them (0.71 muzzle) , and at least 5 guys I know pulled their barrels from 'top USA makers' as these shot ALOT better.
My 'worst' shooting gun (thats not over 70 years old) has a barrel from a 'top USA barrel maker' - your top barrel mfg is quite possibly different to mine.. button, cut, pre contoured, pre lapped, pre fitted, cyro, heat relieved.. there is so many variables that there is obviously not a perfect formula.

KiwiGreg, please do not misrepresent what I said. You are trying to make black and white what is not. I never said threading or fluting will always detrimentally affect accuracy. I went to great length to explain the issues and the large variables at play here, which are real whether you accept them or not. By all means believe what you will, but we will be trying to do the best for our own rifles and those of our customers. This means using common sense and the commonly accepted best practise by the most recognised accuracy barrel makers and gunsmiths in the world. And that may well mean at times publishing the "inconvenient truth" which may well annoy some internet experts and NZ professionals set in their ways. So be it.

Im not sure exactly what KiwiGs getting at.. but making a blanket statement that 'it is so because so and so says its this way' is nothing more than plagiarising what they have published, not because it is right or of the extensive research you;ve done.
Stating god like 'be all and end all' facts based on what you're read on the internet is obviously going to draw controversy.
Not saying you havnt dicked around with stuff, but because 'this is how they do it' is a bollox reasoning to backup a point.
The yanks love carbs, V8s and the imperial system - it works - doesnt mean its the right way to do things.
Real numbers and real data back info up - and if they dont exist is it anymore than an opinion rather than the 'norm' or 'fact'???

Its quite possible that a 2" blank, that when fluted, shoots worse for whatever reason you want to dream up or so and so says.
However that X length barrel for Y weight when fluted, might shoot better than the unfluted barrel weight for weight, length for length, which in turn shoots worse that the original 2" blank.
Its not an even playing field - you've reduced the weight - it like comparing tomatoes and cherry tomatoes

There doesnt need to be a game of big dicks, because sooner or later someone is going to whip out a bigger one or chop it off.

Its a Hunting and Shooting forum, we're all just a number - noone is more more valuable that the next guy.

Why don't people understand fluting does nothing apart from looks. Weight loss is irrelevant as your only talking grains. Strength loss is a much bigger cost.

If you really want to loss weight from the rifle then work out what the diameter of the barrel after fluting then machine the whole barrel to that dimension. And by the way, the barrel will cool much quicker doing that than fluting, yes it will heat faster too.

IF fluting was worthwhile then you would see it in a lot of other places. You don't.

Originally Posted by Wirehunt

Why don't people understand fluting does nothing apart from looks. Weight loss is irrelevant as your only talking grains. Strength loss is a much bigger cost.

If you really want to loss weight from the rifle then work out what the diameter of the barrel after fluting then machine the whole barrel to that dimension. And by the way, the barrel will cool much quicker doing that than fluting, yes it will heat faster too.

Not so - I've been working on something for a little while - got enough done to summarise here. albiet it may not make much sense to those that havnt done a Eng deg dealing with the theory.

This stemmed from some of my AR barrels I'm playing with.
Used my Senderos as reference - here goes - I used imperial measurements as thats what we mostly deal with in gunstuff

30 cal Sendero measures 0.840" just back from the end of the fluting.
The flutes are close enough to 0.1875" (3/16) - 100% radius - 6 of them
Forgetting about the rifling - as this is a constant in comparison
A non fluted barrel in 30 cal with the same minor diameter would have to be 0.70" diameter.
We assume the same material of each barrel in the above 2 comparisons.
The 1st moment of inertia of the fluted barrel is 0.014, the solid barrel is 0.011
The minor diameters are equal as stated above, however the fluted barrel is ~27% stiffer than that solid barrel.

This can be proven again by doing a calc with a weight at the end of the barrel.. 100gms, 100kgs.. makes no difference - the fluted barrel will deflect ~27% less

Simple Physics

I will post the example of weight for weight later

So to those who are of the opinion that thread diameter doesn't matter what do I tell the guy whose gun now shoots worse than before it had a 1/2" thread cut into it? He's the same guy with the bulging suppressor. Did I mention the rifles twin took the GD approach with a 14 x 1 thread and shoots the same/better as before?

When he sends back his suppressor the rifle will be going also and he'll be rightly asking for a new thread to be cut because the 1/2" one definitely affected his accuracy.

Originally Posted by Mike H

So to those who are of the opinion that thread diameter doesn't matter what do I tell the guy whose gun now shoots worse than before it had a 1/2" thread cut into it? He's the same guy with the bulging suppressor. Did I mention the rifles twin took the GD approach with a 14 x 1 thread and shoots the same/better as before?

When he sends back his suppressor the rifle will be going also and he'll be rightly asking for a new thread to be cut because the 1/2" one definitely affected his accuracy.

could just need hand loads tweeking as some do after been suppressed, harmonics etc

Your in denial too tui_man2 of the effect?

Maybe if he went S/S he wouldn't have had so much trouble. Weak shit that it is.

Better expand on that. If you thin the barrel (ie: the thread) THEN put a weak component around that thread, well, good luck. If however you put something around it like S/S that has a bit of guts to it then it is going to be inherently stronger.

So your saying if the barrel opens up due to threading, screwing stainless on will close it up again. If so Id reckon theres less shit on a faggots finger than there is on this thread.

My Guess is that when he had the barrel threaded for the suppressor, the crown may have had some damage or the threading is not concentric to the bore. Just depends on how gunsmith/engineer held the barrel for threading