Thread: Proposed banning of lead shot in sub gauge shotguns report from Southland

Has F&G done any count or research on ducks in nz found dead caused by eating lead pellets?

I recall hearing some states in the US have in fact gone back to lead.

Originally Posted by Toby

Has F&G done any count or research on ducks in nz found dead caused by eating lead pellets?

How's this? This is from the lengthy F & G paper produced at the time of the changeover. I suggest for the full report you contact you local office and ask for it. Alternatively PM me your email address and I can email it to anyone that wants the whole thing.

Originally Posted by Wirehunt

I recall hearing some states in the US have in fact gone back to lead.

Wirehunt, in many places the ban is for all game bird hunting. One state apparently has reverted back to lead in forested areas for hunting pheasants, not waterfowl, due to the issue with steel shot in trees which are to be milled.

No one anywhere has changed back for hunting waterfowl.

Is this scientific evidence anything like the 1080 "scientific evidence" ?

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Originally Posted by Mike H

Gadgetman, there is no need to. You and others on here know this was done by F & G in the late 90's when the issue was first raised by the anti-duck hunting lobby. If you think this wasn't the case then do as I suggested to Toby and convince the minister we should be the first country in the world to bring lead back. Show the minister how our mallards are so different to every other mallard in the world.

So the lead ban for 12g & 10g was in place for several years prior to these studies in the 90's so that they show the significance of lead shot from sub gauges? Then post up these study details please, along with the even earlier study details from before the big gauge bans were brought in, as requested above. If this is not the case then research IS required. You simply cannot say that lead from these sub gauges is a significant issue unless you actually investigate it. If the only research you have is summarised in your earlier post then the expected significance would be 4% of 7.5% = 0.3% by YOUR numbers. You guys are the ones enforcing the changes, please feel free to demonstrate to those you serve that there is a significant issue here. Hell these sub gauge guys have some nerve picking on the 0.3% of breeding birds in the population!

An analogy for you. Would you accept a speeding ticket for being 5km/h over the speed limit from someone who was standing on a street corner without a means of determining your speed? I'd very much doubt it.

Gadgetman, I don't intend to keep going on with a tit for tat like your so keen on. It doesn't matter what I say you'll not believe it.

Like I said if you feel its wrong write to the minister, we've been through the due process and accepted lead is a toxin to our birds.

Our decision was made at the last meeting and only applies to our region. If you want to make an effort to stop it happening in your area then I suggest you write to your Council who look like they may support us in this. I suggest you might also like to stand in your region at the next election and make it your promise that you'll fight to be a world leader in the reintroduction of lead.

Let me know if you don't appreciate me keeping you guys up to date with whats happening before, during and after a decision is made with our Council and I'll ensure I don't post again on any of it.

If it happens in my area that will be the last legal duck I will ever shoot.

I for one, do not agree with this issue. But I appreciate the heads up, thats for sure.

Mike H, I am not going tit for tat. You have simply failed to convince anyone that there is an issue with the limited amount of lead that should be used on waterfowl. All you have said in reality is:

1. That the very vast majority of the submissions were against the change.
2. The studies that you have quoted are out of date and do not represent current lead usage.
3. In the absence of current figures you have used the old figures but not extrapolated the results to gauge estimated current effects.
4. Since you cannot produce any relevant information back your stance simply stated, "I'm here and get to vote."

Frankly your councils approach is so deeply flawed it's farcical.

If you want to make an effort to stop it happening in your area then I suggest you write to your Council who look like they may support us in this.

dont believe nth canterbury did support you without evidence

Let me know if you don't appreciate me keeping you guys up to date with whats happening before, during and after a decision is made with our Council and I'll ensure I don't post again on any of it.

when you ignore our submissions and opinions to the point you have you might as well.christ you hardly gave your own voters 3 weeks.[by the way what date was that paper the notice re submissions was in]
be nice if you consulted southland licence buyers first not last. after the fact you already had the decision in your pocket. do you really expect us to believe you didnt canvass support on the councill before the decision was made??.

Most of Germany and some of Hungary banned lead in rifle bullets now too. RWS have developed an effective lead free replacement.

Let me know if you don't appreciate me keeping you guys up to date with whats happening before, during and after a decision is made with our Council and I'll ensure I don't post again on any of it.

I guess most of us appreciate you posting this info - I certainly do. But you must remember that by doing so, you have made yourself the face of F&G on this forum. As most of us do not write letters to F&G, we have suddenly found an outlet for our frustrations - you.
Comments are usually not directed at you personally, but I feel you should take note of comments posted. After all, you were elected to serve us in the management of fish and game.

Originally Posted by Lentil

Let me know if you don't appreciate me keeping you guys up to date with whats happening before, during and after a decision is made with our Council and I'll ensure I don't post again on any of it.

I guess most of us appreciate you posting this info - I certainly do. But you must remember that by doing so, you have made yourself the face of F&G on this forum. As most of us do not write letters to F&G, we have suddenly found an outlet for our frustrations - you.
Comments are usually not directed at you personally, but I feel you should take note of comments posted. After all, you were elected to serve us in the management of fish and game.

Exactly, nothing personal but you shouldn't get all righteous when you ask license holders for there submissions and then do the opposite. To those of us on the outside it "appears" like you only asked for submissions to make it look like you were following procedure when your minds were already made up.

If a ban on lead is whats needed then do it nationwide in one go and when viable alternatives are actually available AND cost effective. And have good science to back it up not adhoc 10 year old research of dubious origin. Be prepared to find your licence revenue declining though.

I would note the latest H&F I have just received has exactly no sub-gauge non toxic ammo listed, (at least I can't find any).
If you don't like /can't use steel in your 12g gun then you a stuck with single product, Fiocchi Tundra 36gm 2 3/4 @ $39.99 for 10 shots. I would be giving up and going back to shooting clays only (with lead)

Suppose thanks for the heads up. Don't try to be one of the boys though cos you ain't
Your private agenda is hard to understand We don't agree with your policy .we don't agree with your outdated facts . I have a plan boys $5 a week in the kitty I guarantee it buys you a gate person who using your walkie gives a nudge as to unexpected carrot peeling hippies arriving for the whole opening weekend cos I honestly reckon we could be pushed that far
Seems some of us orbit the earth and the rest orbit some other place I think it's called Uranus .maybe you prove us wrong next year and there's millions new ducks or maybe then you tell us no boys it ll take 20 years to get back. Yeah Right