Thread: Proposed banning of lead shot in sub gauge shotguns report from Southland

I'll leave you guys to your caveman ways I think. In the meantime as I've demonstrated what we're doing, why don't you ask what your own councils are doing about the decline, you know what we're doing, its better than sitting on the fence taking licence money and watching a decline. I look forward to seeing what you come back with as far as what they're doing

Originally Posted by Mike H

why don't you ask what your own councils are doing about the decline, you know what we're doing, its better than sitting on the fence taking licence money and watching a decline.

Have you asked what shooters in my area are doing? You probably don't care

Your between a rock and a hard place Mike. But good on ya for being here, weathering the storm sort of speak, seriously. You are never likely to change your mind on this issue and neither are most of us.
But you have too see that this forum and the other for that matter has only has a small % of people that are into the sport yet most of the people that have posted on the subject are upset at what is proposed by F&G ref sub-gauges.
Do you think its fair to say this small % people is a fair indication of the overall feeling towards the issue? Therefore making the claimed research of F&G southland around the issue a bit weak.
My only problem with F&G is on this issue. I know there are more serious reasons for waterfowl decline in some regions than any type of shot used.

I otherwise feel that F&G try to do whats best for the stakeholders. I have heard more about F&G West Coast in the last couple of years than I ever have since changing from the society. They are very active in our community and are even trying to get younger shooters into the sport by providing free clays, ammo and coaches at a couple gun clubs in our area. For some reason interest is low but they have to be commended for their efforts. I know one of the blokes personally and he is a keen hunter fisherman along with being a good bugger. I think he is the reason I am hearing so many good things lately about their efforts.

On the subject of steel performance compared to lead. Do you really think it is in everyones mind? Please dont dribble on about being better hunters and choosing your shots. Its old. Anyone can set up a reasonable spread and call ducks into 40 yrds.

Originally Posted by R93

My only problem with F&G is on this issue. I know there are more serious reasons for waterfowl decline in some regions than any type of shot used.

Bingo. Address these issues Mike H if you want a place in history as a guy who did the right thing.

On the subject of steel R93 I can honestly say I have no problem with it. I use a wad wizard choke which I believe helps and am a reasonable shot I feel which helps also.

What isn't known amongst the people on either forum is that like several of my fellow councillors I have access to a 20 gauge(my wife's). I took it out on the Sunday of opening weekend last year and using 3" 1 1/8 ounce of lead fives didn't find it killed ducks any better than the Remington 3" 1 1/4 ounce of steel 3s I was using the day before.

I'm not sure what people think we're trying to do here? We are hunters like you who want to do more for the sport based on the facts put in front of us. So far for the last 6 months that this debate has gone on down here the only thing people keep raising is the wounding rate of steel. It is not an issue with me, the guys I hunt with or any of the other councillors.

Some of us on the council shoot ducks in paddocks with lead. We get a similar ratio of wounded ducks with that. It is not the be all and end all magic bullet. Some people have had such a bad experience from when the first cheap shitty loads of steel came into the country that they've forgotten we wounded ducks before that with lead IMO.

Originally Posted by Mike H

I'm not sure what people think we're trying to do here? We are hunters like you who want to do more for the sport based on the facts put in front of us. So far for the last 6 months that this debate has gone on down here the only thing people keep raising is the wounding rate of steel. It is not an issue with me, the guys I hunt with or any of the other councillors

What are you trying to do here?

Originally Posted by Mike H

On the subject of steel R93 I can honestly say I have no problem with it. I use a wad wizard choke which I believe helps and am a reasonable shot I feel which helps also.

What isn't known amongst the people on either forum is that like several of my fellow councillors I have access to a 20 gauge(my wife's). I took it out on the Sunday of opening weekend last year and using 3" 1 1/8 ounce of lead fives didn't find it killed ducks any better than the Remington 3" 1 1/4 ounce of steel 3s I was using the day before.

I'm not sure what people think we're trying to do here? We are hunters like you who want to do more for the sport based on the facts put in front of us. So far for the last 6 months that this debate has gone on down here the only thing people keep raising is the wounding rate of steel. It is not an issue with me, the guys I hunt with or any of the other councillors.

Some of us on the council shoot ducks in paddocks with lead. We get a similar ratio of wounded ducks with that. It is not the be all and end all magic bullet. Some people have had such a bad experience from when the first cheap shitty loads of steel came into the country that they've forgotten we wounded ducks before that with lead IMO.

Fuck it, I will say it, I am, when seasoned, well above reasonable with a shotgun. However since going too steel I have had too fire so many more follow up shots than I have had too, with lead. This is also evident in my birds in hand to shots fired ratio.
I fired on average another 15-20 rounds to get my limits on opening compared to years previous using lead. I always take the same amount of ammo when I go out, and for interest sake count whats left compared to whats shot. I get sick of seeing a ball of feathers and the fuckers struggling away. I have an decent clay machine and practice with steel loads. I break the same amount of targets I would expect with lead.
I do agree lead is not magic, but it is way more effective in my experience.
I must get one of these magic chokes? A restriction in the muzzle that will make my steel shot more effective as it leaves the wad?

Remove a scientifically proven poison from duck habitat for the benefit of the duck. That is all.

Why do you think we're doing it?

I actually don't know why you are doing it. We have shot in greater volume with lead for the last century. Something tells me the declining numbers aren't lead related...

Wad Wizard Choke Tubes - Shotgun Choke Tube System

Patterns beautifully, not sure about the whole shot stringing theory however

Originally Posted by Mike H

Wad Wizard Choke Tubes - Shotgun Choke Tube System

Patterns beautifully, not sure about the whole shot stringing theory however

I think you will find that a decent shot string is relied upon more than most people realise to hit flying targets. Some of the best shotgunners in the world use it to great effect.

mike ,in a similar vein to when JC was presented before Herod for judgement,I sense one of the thoughts going through your head is"this aint lookin too flash bro"".

How many ducks were found poisoned by lead?

Toby, I don't have the numbers but if your suggesting its a fallacy then perhaps you should write to the minister and ask for 12 gauge lead to be reintroduced?

Not one country in the world has gone back to it as it is proven. Find me one link to a single bit of published research which scientifically disproves this please. Alternatively do a google search of lead shot poisoning and let me know how many of the articles published you can disprove. Through this you'll find the mortality rates of ducks with ingested lead.

Like it or not we as Councillors cannot make regulations based on sub gauge hunter opinion, we need evidence and no one has put that up yet to support lead shot over water. The science backs it up as bad for our ducks and its there for you to see if you take the time to google.

Originally Posted by Mike H

Toby, I don't have the numbers but if your suggesting its a fallacy then perhaps you should write to the minister and ask for 12 gauge lead to be reintroduced?

Not one country in the world has gone back to it as it is proven. Find me one link to a single bit of published research which scientifically disproves this please. Alternatively do a google search of lead shot poisoning and let me know how many of the articles published you can disprove. Through this you'll find the mortality rates of ducks with ingested lead.

Like it or not we as Councillors cannot make regulations based on sub gauge hunter opinion, we need evidence and no one has put that up yet to support lead shot over water. The science backs it up as bad for our ducks and its there for you to see if you take the time to google.

Likewise I have not seen you post anything showing current NZ duck mortality rates due to lead poisoning. And by that I don't mean some hand waving summary. I mean a proper study with methods, analysis, results, etc.