Thread: Proposed banning of lead shot in sub gauge shotguns report from Southland

Originally Posted by Mike H

Sorry to KWB, its the other one, Tube

I haven't seen anyone from Southland have a go at us yet , just the usual suspects from other regions

And no I don't know that there is ample evidence to the contrary so would be delighted if you could share it please

The writing style of kotuku is nothing like that of kWB or Tube. But I must say that the majority of what KWB has said is quite valid.

1. You asked for submissions which by what you have posted you have ignored if they don't fit what you want.
2. The statistics that you posted show that the %of shooters using the sub gauges is really insignificant. We should now be looking at 5% of 7.5% of birds currently affected, if 12 gauge shooters are using steel and the sub gauges effect is analysed.
3. What is obvious is that you predetermined the outcome. This is not due process and quite frankly you should be ashamed of yourselves for not following due process.
4. If you want the people you are supposed to be representing to submit responses to back your view then you need to educate them and provide proof.
5. The change that you have made is against previous reassurances that have been given to hunters.

These points you have not addressed in the slightest.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

The writing style of kotuku is nothing like that of kWB or Tube. But I must say that the majority of what KWB has said is quite valid.

1. You asked for submissions which by what you have posted you have ignored if they don't fit what you want.
2. The statistics that you posted show that the %of shooters using the sub gauges is really insignificant. We should now be looking at 5% of 7.5% of birds currently affected, if 12 gauge shooters are using steel and the sub gauges effect is analysed.
3. What is obvious is that you predetermined the outcome. This is not due process and quite frankly you should be ashamed of yourselves for not following due process.
4. If you want the people you are supposed to be representing to submit responses to back your view then you need to educate them and provide proof.
5. The change that you have made is against previous reassurances that have been given to hunters.

These points you have not addressed in the slightest.

1. None of the submissions provided any reason for adults to continue with lead. Juniors were exempted as a result of the submissions received.

2. I'm a little suspect about how honest people may have been about their 20 gauge use given they knew why they were being asked. Judging by the uproar however its clear there is a significant number of people affected by this and they aren't the junior hunters who need it (if you read the submissions).

3. I have been open in all my posts prior to the decision that my mind was not made up. I went out of my way to let everyone know about the process and how to submit. Had people provided good reason to continue with lead I would have gone along with that.

4. We sent out quite a lot of information to those who signalled an interest in it. Lets be clear however, the oath of office which we sign as a councillor is not to represent hunters, it is about sports fish and gamebird management and the best things for that.

5. Southland F & G have never made any assurances about the continuation of 20 gauge use.

Originally Posted by Mike H

1. None of the submissions provided any reason for adults to continue with lead. Juniors were exempted as a result of the submissions received.

2. I'm a little suspect about how honest people may have been about their 20 gauge use given they knew why they were being asked. Judging by the uproar however its clear there is a significant number of people affected by this and they aren't the junior hunters who need it (if you read the submissions).

From what I have seen around here I would say they are likely fairly accurate.

3. I have been open in all my posts prior to the decision that my mind was not made up. I went out of my way to let everyone know about the process and how to submit. Had people provided good reason to continue with lead I would have gone along with that.

Maybe just that they have not been convinced with the information they have received? Should something like the treaty of Waitangi be considered invalid if anyone who signed it did not also write their reasons for doing so? I do see your point though, you are looking for reasoning not postal votes.

4. We sent out quite a lot of information to those who signalled an interest in it. Lets be clear however, the oath of office which we sign as a councillor is not to represent hunters, it is about sports fish and gamebird management and the best things for that.

But without hunters they are not game. Geese are by all means game and hunted, even if they are on a different schedule now.

5. Southland F & G have never made any assurances about the continuation of 20 gauge use.

But your national body has.


Note: I'm fairly new to game bird hunting and have not known anything other than steel. As such I am happy enough with it and know reasonably well it's and my limitations; too much Scottish blood and respect for the game for low percentage shots.

I have not seen your research but would be very interested in seeing it. Gut feeling is that if lead was responsible for low bird numbers then going by the period 12 gauge non toxic shot has been used and the life expectancy of the quarry that there should be a noticeable increase in population happening by. If this is not the case then the deaths due to lead as a toxin is likely insignificant. This would indicate that more research is needed to find out what the significant factors are.

Another point I'm interested in is the build up of shot in the environment that the ducks access. Just reasoning here, as I'm no expert, but these dabbling areas where the birds collect grit I would presume would tend to have more of a flow rather than slower/still water with a muddy bottom. The agitation provided by the flowing water I would have thought likely to cause the lead shot to drop through the stones, and the stuff that falls on a muddy bottom would tend to sink through the mud naturally anyway.

Originally Posted by Mike H

1. None of the submissions provided any reason for adults to continue with lead. Juniors were exempted as a result of the submissions received.

2. I'm a little suspect about how honest people may have been about their 20 gauge use given they knew why they were being asked. Judging by the uproar however its clear there is a significant number of people affected by this and they aren't the junior hunters who need it (if you read the submissions).

3. I have been open in all my posts prior to the decision that my mind was not made up. I went out of my way to let everyone know about the process and how to submit. Had people provided good reason to continue with lead I would have gone along with that.

4. We sent out quite a lot of information to those who signalled an interest in it. Lets be clear however, the oath of office which we sign as a councillor is not to represent hunters, it is about sports fish and gamebird management and the best things for that.

5. Southland F & G have never made any assurances about the continuation of 20 gauge use.

but all the people supporting your position are a 100% above reproach huh

Originally Posted by Mike H

Sorry to KWB, its the other one, Tube

I stand corrected. I can see my good mates writing coming through.

Chuckling like a feeding hen with words rumbling around the large empty parts of my brain like...........toothless tigers and need more popcorn.

Thats why we're taking measures now Pointer, we've seen the results in other areas of waiting too long. While it may not be popular its for the ducks that we're doing this. Like most regions we've been declining for 20 years (before steel shot).

Originally Posted by Mike H

Thats why we're taking measures now Pointer, we've seen the results in other areas of waiting too long. While it may not be popular its for the ducks that we're doing this. Like most regions we've been declining for 20 years (before steel shot).

Can you honestly say that? That you are taking these measures for the game animals? for the sport? You mention decline before steel, so doesn't that tell you something?

Give it time, you will see what you are doing is short sighted.

Originally Posted by Pointer

Can you honestly say that? That you are taking these measures for the game animals? for the sport? You mention decline before steel, so doesn't that tell you something?

Give it time, you will see what you are doing is short sighted.

Yes it does Pointer. Because of that Southland put up a proposal for a national research program around mallards. We proposed to put up $100k each year for three years if matched by some other councils. Guess what, none did. We decided we needed to do it anyway and as we speak a national program(albeit short of funds) is underway. Lead is a problem and we all know that thats why we aren't going against the research we've proposed by making this change. Hopefully the research will find out some of the other issues. We're prepared to accept whatever the findings of it are.

Originally Posted by Mike H

Yes it does Pointer. Because of that Southland put up a proposal for a national research program around mallards. We proposed to put up $100k each year for three years if matched by some other councils. Guess what, none did. We decided we needed to do it anyway and as we speak a national program(albeit short of funds) is underway. Lead is a problem and we all know that thats why we aren't going against the research we've proposed by making this change. Hopefully the research will find out some of the other issues. We're prepared to accept whatever the findings of it are.

How many years do you have left on the planet Mike H? I bet you have a few years on me. I can't help but feel, that my generation of shooters will have to come behind you and your friends adgendas and clean up this god awful circus

Originally Posted by Mike H

Thats why we're taking measures now Pointer, we've seen the results in other areas of waiting too long. While it may not be popular its for the ducks that we're doing this. Like most regions we've been declining for 20 years (before steel shot).

FFS! All of a sudden too! What happened for the other 80 yrs when lead was used?

Originally Posted by R93

FFS! All of a sudden too! What happened for the other 80 yrs when lead was used?

We have no idea because no one counted ducks like they do now. The counts only go back 20 years sorry.

If by the other side you mean FNH theres no documentation there. Put up a link please if you can.

I cant believe your all arguing with another brain washed f&g muppet

Originally Posted by crzyman

I cant believe your all arguing with another brain washed f&g muppet

And we are not arguing, we are having a free and frank discussion, sometimes.