Thread: The WORST Firearm You Ever Owned

Originally Posted by GravelBen

IIRC the Marlin 60 has outsold it about 2 to 1 over the years.

In the States, sure. the reason I suspect is that Marlin is a lot cheaper and it is almost mandatory for everyone to have a gun. Many gun owners just pick one reasonable gun for the least amount of money and do not care for anything else. (In a similar vein, JW15 outsells the marlin 980 in New Zealand too, but I digress.)

In New Zealand, I believe 10/22 is the best selling semi. my unscientific methods that took me to this conclusion include:
1, observation of 1022 ownership vs 60 ownership in shooting clubs, ranges and hunters I come across.
2, observation number of rifles for sell in Reloaders, Guncity, Serious Shooter.
3, observation number of rifles offered on trademe. see below

TradeMe.co.nz - 10/22 ruger for sale, New Zealand

TradeMe.co.nz - marlin 60 for sale, New Zealand

Originally Posted by GravelBen

Probably because its reliable too, but you don't need to double the cost of the rifle with aftermarket parts to make it accurate.

I believe the general consensus is that Marlin is more accurate than Ruger out of the factory, but less tolerant to different ammo and slightly less reliable.

Dont get me wrong, I am not at all saying Marlin is a bad gun or that 10/22 is a better gun. In fact I think I have said several times that current price for 10/22 is more than its worth (and I would nto necessarily say the same about Marlin 60). My point simply goes to it does not cost twice the 10/22 to make it shoot accurately.

Originally Posted by northdude

must be one of the few rifles out there that you buy brand new and straight away have to put another barrel on it to get what you wanted in the first place

Almost everyone I know in Birkenhead rifle club modifies their CZ452's trigger as soon as they buy the gun. Does that make CZ452 a bad gun? Surely not. It just means it is not a local competition level gun out of the box.

One of the best shooters I know shoots an Annie 17xx, he replaced the factory walnut stock with an almost identical looking 1000 dollar fibreglass stock for improved rigidity. Does that mean Annies come with bad stock?

The vast majority of 10/22 owners are actually content with its barrel and poor out of box accuracy. But for those who want the ruger tolerance, rotary mag and reliability, but not the out of box accuracy, they choose to upgrade the barrel.

Got an old Annie 1415 M54 target shooter, that is still in the original stock.
Shoots much better than I can - haven't bothered hunting with it - weighs a 'ton'.
Depends on what you're looking for.
Was given a Stirling M1400 (Phillipino manufacture), shot inside the 9 ring on a 10/1 target at 25 yds (old indoor range).
Adequate for 'minute of rabbit' to 40M, crap for anything outside 40M.

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

In the States, sure. the reason I suspect is that Marlin is a lot cheaper and it is almost mandatory for everyone to have a gun. Many gun owners just pick one reasonable gun for the least amount of money and do not care for anything else. (In a similar vein, JW15 outsells the marlin 980 in New Zealand too, but I digress.)

In New Zealand, I believe 10/22 is the best selling semi. my unscientific methods that took me to this conclusion include:
1, observation of 1022 ownership vs 60 ownership in shooting clubs, ranges and hunters I come across.
2, observation number of rifles for sell in Reloaders, Guncity, Serious Shooter.
3, observation number of rifles offered on trademe. see below

TradeMe.co.nz - 10/22 ruger for sale, New Zealand

TradeMe.co.nz - marlin 60 for sale, New Zealand




I believe the general consensus is that Marlin is more accurate than Ruger out of the factory, but less tolerant to different ammo and slightly less reliable.

Dont get me wrong, I am not at all saying Marlin is a bad gun or that 10/22 is a better gun. In fact I think I have said several times that current price for 10/22 is more than its worth (and I would nto necessarily say the same about Marlin 60). My point simply goes to it does not cost twice the 10/22 to make it shoot accurately.

In the states they are all cheaper and many people buy a lot of firearms.

The reason so many gun shops sell so many Rugers is likely that they will make more money from them, through the initial sale and then through the menu of upgrades that are required to make it do what it should out of the box. Picking just the NZ market is not good practice as we are very small and affected more by supply (availability), advertising and tradition.

The ammo tolerance is a bit of a red herring. You always want to find out what your rifle (centrefire and rimfire) likes the best and use that. Point of impact will tend to shift if you change ammo, though if your grouping is not that great it may not be noticed.

Mine would have to be a savage axis in 7mm 08, bloody useless rifle

I bought a Midland .243 brand new, first centre fire rifle too, had the same sloppy bolt as u have mentioned, and had a habit of jamming when loading, instead of the bullet sliding up and into the breech, it would leave the bottom of the case in the internal mag thus causing the bullet to elevate the front and jam into the top of the breech. Useless as, and I could never group with it either, took it back and traded it on brand new Winchester Trapper 3030............beautiful rifle, regret selling it actually.

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

My point simply goes to it does not cost twice the 10/22 to make it shoot accurately.

If i was buying a 10-22 with the intention of rebarreling it I don't think I'd start with a new one, I'd buy a tidy second hand one. Let's say $400, it's what new ones were going for not that long ago.

Add the $400 you said a barrel costs, plus whatever a gunsmith charges to fit it... You've more than doubled the cost, and that's before you even think about the horrible trigger.

Marlin 60 microgroove entered production 1960, and Sturm Ruger first produced 10/22 about 1964. Marlin 60 biggest selling 22 of any kind in history with 13m sold. Ruger 10/22 has sold 6 million. Someone in NZ had import licensing for the Ruger in the 60s/70s, but other better semis like the Marlin 60, Remington 552 and some of the Euros simply weren't imported. Very hard to get licencing in the old days.

As a rimfire hobbist have bench and field tested dozens of makes and models over the decades. We had about six 10/22s over time - nice little unit but consistently let down by poor accuracy. All 10/22s tested between 1-2" for repeatable groups at 50m, averaging around 1.5". That is the least accurate 22 overall that I have tested. Best Ruger 10/22 (looking at my records) at 50m averaged 1.04" for four best groups. Note you never rely on single best groups shot last whenever - they never tell a rifle's story. Pulling the 10/22s down, inaccuracies principally due to one or more of: loose chambering, poor barrel connections, poor rifling. Slugging the barrel in some rugers (pushing a 22 slug down barrel) showed rifling very uneven and bullet almost fell down some sections before engaging tight rifling at end. Ruger would not handle any and all ammos - good with some, poor with other brands as with all semiautos, and mags would clog with blowback debris under heavy use.

Best wee Ruger 22 tested was the model 96 lever action. Same style and mag, but very quick lever, and surprisingly accurate at 0.7s at 50m. Absolute jewel - cracker of a wee hunter. No weaknesses.

Marlin semis broke my own 30 year prejudice against semiautomatics!! I first bought a model 60, and it was so accurate I thought it must be an oddity. I then proceeded to buy and test about twelve model 60s, 70s, 75, 795s, a 7000, and 990s etc and a couple of 925 bolts. Marlin microgroove 22s very accurate - in fact from over 100 sporter rimfires of all makes and models, two Marlin 60s hold the record with me for 5 shot group averages at 50m. Both model 60s - a 1998 and a recent 2012 60DLX shot 1/4" groups at best at 50m, and one rifle averaged 0.29" for 4 groups, while the other averaged 0.39". Stunning performance from standard barrel sporter. Very basic rifles with good barrels. All of the Marlin semis averaged well under 1", with almost all sub 0.5" at best except the two model 70s. Could not accurize them - some production issue with that odd model. Marlin very reliable if you do three things - run them clean, run them nearly dry (just one drop of oil on bolt only), and with all CCI ammos. Fat little CCI round engages Microgroove rifling well.

Both Marlin and Ruger triggers heavy as required ex-factory for US market. Ruger trigger easier to work on than Marlin but either can be adjusted with not too much time/cost. Mcarbo produce a spring and trigger blade set for the marlins which has triggers running beautifully. Various other options also - lots with ruger.

My 70s ruger 10/22 alot better made than recent ones. In earlier times (local gunsmith mate advises me) Ruger were outsourcing barrels and some they bought were good makes eg Shilen - which made for occasional more accurate 10/22s out there. With marlin also the pre 2009 New Haven Ct models were better made than the Kentucky ones after Remington purchased company. Initial quality issues with Rem production apparently are now being resolved.

The difference between them is accuracy. I would not expect anyone to have to immediately rebarrel any sporter 22 to achieve consistently grouping, and I would not recommend 10/22 for any new shooter, or any field shooter prizing accuracy. We did also have an aftermarket highly modded 10/22 with Green mountain/VQ components etc (someone had spent over $1200) but only the original trigger blade remained - it was no longer a ruger.

Did a comparison of common semiauto 22s for a hunting magazine a while back - ammo testing them, then group tests off the bench at 50m. The rifles included Toz 99, Ruger 10/22, Marlins 60 and 795. In short the marlins were vastly better on the range - was a relief coming back to them after shooting the others. Model 60 averaged 0.29", and model 795 about 0.57" . And to my surprise the two marlins proved also most reliable in test.

As stock rifles a Marlin 60 if available or a 795/795SS is easily the better rifle - precise, accurate 100m shooters. Be cautious about old 60s off trademe - may need a new spring set from Mcarbo. If you do see a 10/22 that has had a Whistlepig (nice barrels) etc done to it, it could be worth buying at the right price.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

In the states they are all cheaper and many people buy a lot of firearms.

in the States Malin 60 is about 160 while 10/22 is about 260, quite a big difference. here I think the difference is about 15%.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

The reason so many gun shops sell so many Rugers is likely that they will make more money from them,

That must mean 10/22 is more popular then, if people are more willing to pay a bigger profit to the shops than Marlin. In fact more shops stock them should lead to more competition and therefore lower profit for 10/22 than Marlin.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

Picking just the NZ market is not good practice as we are very small and affected more by supply (availability), advertising and tradition.

I am not trying to decide which rifle should win the "rifle of the century" award. I am just saying 10/22 is the most popular semi 22 in New Zealand. For better or for worse people like it more here than the Marlin, it is that simple.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

The ammo tolerance is a bit of a red herring. You always want to find out what your rifle (centrefire and rimfire) likes the best and use that. Point of impact will tend to shift if you change ammo, though if your grouping is not that great it may not be noticed.

Not everyone does that, plenty of people do not shoot enough or care enough to find the best ammo. What they do is grab whatever they see and shoot for the weekend, then 6 month later go do shoot at a different place and buy some more last minute ammo. You may not care for ammo tolerance. That is completely fine (in fact, I personally do not either as all I shoot is CCI subs or SV). But there are many who find ammo intolerance annoying.

Originally Posted by GravelBen

If i was buying a 10-22 with the intention of rebarreling it I don't think I'd start with a new one, I'd buy a tidy second hand one. Let's say $400, it's what new ones were going for not that long ago.

That is what I did. I paid 300 for mine 3 years ago, an older stainless model with alloy trigger housing.

Originally Posted by GravelBen

Add the $400 you said a barrel costs, plus whatever a gunsmith charges to fit it... You've more than doubled the cost,

You would not get a gun smith to fit the barrel - that is the whole appeal of 10/22, it is such a easy gun to change every part. the V-lock takes about 20 seconds to remove and the barrel slides right off. The only thing is that aftermarket barrels tend to need a slight sanding down before it would fit into the action, nothing an average bloke cannot get done in 30 minutes.

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

in the States Malin 60 is about 160 while 10/22 is about 260, quite a big difference. here I think the difference is about 15%.

And in the US the Marlin greatly out sells the Marlin. As said it is more an availability and marketing issue here.

That must mean 10/22 is more popular then, if people are more willing to pay a bigger profit to the shops than Marlin. In fact more shops stock them should lead to more competition and therefore lower profit for 10/22 than Marlin.

No. It just means that the shops push the Ruger more in order to make more money.

We used to mainly buy British cars here. Was it because they were great? No, they leaked oil, most needed a recondition at about 80,000km, ... It was because it was all that was available due to trade agreements.

I am not trying to decide which rifle should win the "rifle of the century" award. I am just saying 10/22 is the most popular semi 22 in New Zealand. For better or for worse people like it more here than the Marlin, it is that simple.

Again, they just hear more about the Ruger because of marketing and tradition. But only here.

Not everyone does that, plenty of people do not shoot enough or care enough to find the best ammo. What they do is grab whatever they see and shoot for the weekend, then 6 month later go do shoot at a different place and buy some more last minute ammo. You may not care for ammo tolerance. That is completely fine (in fact, I personally do not either as all I shoot is CCI subs or SV). But there are many who find ammo intolerance annoying.

Those are the people the gun shops like. They don't know any better and are therefore easily persuaded into buying something that isn't the best for what they really want to do.

Someone pass the popcorn please

True. Ruger 10/22s gained an undeserved reputation here in the absence of competition, and they are popular to sell now because they inevitably require further sales of a whole range of aftermarket parts to accurize them.

My personal observation - the best of the standard barrel sporter 22 semiautos I've tested over 30-40 years in terms of overall price/performance/quality/reliability would be the 2010 Marlin 60DLX. Hard to argue with groups down to 1/4", and averages close to that. Quite good quality little unit, walnut stock, beautifully accurate. Tube mag not everyone's cup of tea. Outdoor brands in Akld brings 60s etc in. If you prefer a detachable mag (easier with silencer) I'd go for a Marlin 795 stainless. Again reliable with right ammos, very accurate (0.4s at best and averaging in the 0.5s), and inexpensive for a wee sporter. Trigger mod required but that's it.

Looks like we need a thread for the 10/22 all on its own. Interesting information being shared though and it makes for some good reading.

My worst "rifle' was a BRNO semi-auto .22 that I purchased new in 1995. I'd lusted after one for a dozen or more years and when I finally bought one I was proud as punch. At the same time the wife bought herself a Stainless/Synthetic 10/22 and once rigged up we hit the rabbits with vengeance. The BRNO soon showed itself to be unreliable but, hey, give it some time to wear in and she'll be right. Right? Yeah, nah. I persevered with that bloody thing for 10 years then finally gave up, sold it and bought a 10/22 with a Hogue stock. In the meantime the wife's 10/22 never missed a beat. All manner of ammo seemed to cycle through without an issue. It was light, nice to use and accurate enough for rabbits. The "new" 10/22 (now about 6 years old) is the same - runs perfectly. Both have had well over 3 or 4 thousand rounds through them. I used to do 800 rounds a day with the school camps and you might get two or three hiccups in the entire day. They love the CCI subsonic ammo but are happy with just about anything.

I had a second hand 10g semi-auto "Escourt" Shotgun that was a POS too - sold that inside 4 months and bought a new ATA 10g semi instead. What a delightful shotgun. Kids love it as it's light, quick to point and doesn't sit them on their ass. I hardly get to use the thing.

Regarding the Marlin vs 10/22 argument - like those before me stated, I agree the Marlin is possibly slightly more accurate right out of the box but maybe a little more fussy with the ammo. I don't like the skinny Marlin stock as much (personal choice of course).

In respect to modifying the Ruger, I read up on good ol' Google and noticed popular opinion pointed towards improving accuracy was easiest done by cleaning up the trigger assembly. Not wanting to spend $400 on a Timney Kit I polished up the parts I had with 1600 wet and dry - and what a difference that made! 50 metre groups tightened up noticeably and I now wish I'd polished them up years ago. It was very simple to do and a very satisfying outcome. I installed the nylon recoil pin (reduced the "clack" of rearming) and radiused the rear of the bolt to make rearming quieter and smoother. Both .22's are a joy to use.

Originally Posted by northdude

Someone pass the popcorn please

Here ya go.